D&D 5E Out of the Abyss - No Drizzt afterall?

[Mercule]

My point is, it may be a concept that only a narrow pool of players can play well. But it still comes down to the problem being the players, not the archetype.

Agreed. I've had one good kender-clone run in my games. He's the reason for the guideline that you automatically succeed at any Bluff check that leaves the DM speechless. But... digression.

 

[Eric V]

Poor Graz'zt. There he was thinking he was one of the big three.

This is the section I'm probably most exited about. Brings back memories of Lost Caverns of Tsojcanth where they released the demon lord stats in the appendix

Oh, he might still be. Based on several conversations happening in this forum, the CR ratings on monsters doesn't seem to mean very much.

 

[Eric V]

And what is wrong with giving the players what they want?

Some DMs can't stand that...

 

[Eric V]

You're right that they've scaled it back a bit with how overpowered they are, and I think that's good. There was just no need for some of that stuff.

They seem to be the weakest of the elf options to me.

 

[Sacrosanct]

As far as I'm concerned, Drow are supposed to be scary. In order to be scary, they have to have mary-sue type attributes. Otherwise they just become deep gnomes. Who cares about running into deep gnomes?

I don't recall anyone playing a drow as a PC until DRizzt came on the scene. They were the bad guys. Allies of Lloth and the giants that needed to be slaughtered in creative ways. Then Drizzt came along and you saw clones pop up everywhere largely due to two camps:

Camp 1, the Min/maxers: "OMG, double weapon spec for awesome damage AND all those kool drow abilities? Hellz yeah. Oh, don't worry DM, part of my back story was to get sunglasses so I don't worry about being in bright light."

Camp 2, the Goth crowd (remember, this is late 80s to early 90s): "He's so dark, and angsty, and beautiful, and angsty, and he always beats the bullies, and angsty, and no one gets him, and no one gets me, it's like WE WERE MADE FOR EACH OTHER!"

 

[Majoru Oakheart]

I don't recall anyone playing a drow as a PC until DRizzt came on the scene. They were the bad guys. Allies of Lloth and the giants that needed to be slaughtered in creative ways.

Let's be fair, the Drow first appeared as enemies in 1977. The first time stats appeared for them as a player race was in 1985 in Unearthed Arcana. The first Drizzt book was published in 1988.

Pretty much the same time you COULD pick Drow as a race was about the same time that Drizzt existed. I'm sure Drizzt helped to popularize Drow as a player choice since before that the average player likely looked at Drow in UA and said "Hmm, I don't know anything about this race. I'll pick something else."

 

[Remathilis]

I have not, personally, seen these as much, but I don't do as much supers gaming. Wolverine and Gambit were specters when I did do supers, though. Of course, that was when his claws were still a bionic add-on, rather than bone, which is a whole different rant.

Hi. My first two PCs were a Wolverine and a Gambit ripoff.

Logan, dwarf fighter.
Remmathilis, elven thief.

I was a child of the 90s...

 

[Green1]

Some DMs can't stand that...

Indeed. One time I was looking for a game. The 4e PHB3 had just dropped.

Outside a gaming store, a potential DM met me. I wanted to try out the minotaur and also the warden class from PHB2. We had a wererat warden henchman in a previous game I played in that was pretty awesome and I was sold on the well written backstory of the minotaur. I was thinking a survivor of some plundering by adventurers who was raised as a calf by one of the adventurers who was a druid. Pretty cool story, I thought for just off the top of my head and I waas more than willing to come up with more fluff by game day.

But, there was a reason this DM always looked for players. He disallowed darn near everything under the sun. No elves, gnomes, etc. Only Humans. Very low power level, but DM was in love with talking paragon paths and demanded what paragon path I would take. 1st is too early for that, I said. I would have many levels to RP and develop character before deciding.

Well, I was accused of power gaming. He also knew some people that knew some people who knew what kind of campaigns I ran when I DMed and it was horrid blasphemy to him. But, my deal is this. Yes, I admire works on setting. Yes, I admire work on well done NPCs. But, I was not even allowed to counter offer with a better concept due to the fact I may be "disruptive" to whatever story just for wanting to try out the latest cool thing.

I was not invited, and I heard his little group fell apart because it had more railroads than Illinois Central. But, it seems the sign of a selfish DM and I would say unseasoned DM that can not cope. I had no intention of being disruptive, but thought the concept if fleshed out could be a deep character. But, all the DM wanted was patsies for HIS story.

Not in my game I run currently. Players include a Drow Ranger archer who is one of the King's generals and has 100 level 4 goblin FTR/Rouges as troops; A siren Monk/Priest with refugees from her dead world and a refugee camp and 150 level 6 Orc Horse Archers, a shadar ki ranger who was in a dragon war but banished 1000 years in the future, and a half elven sorceror who tried to go to Limbo to learn the songs of chaos from a Bard Slaad but ended up taking a wrong portal.

But, reading from other DMs, maybe I am just weird. Maybe I should have a gritty, strict story to be "normal".

Drizzt is welcome, but he won't be Drizzt by the time I get finished.

 

[Hussar]

If you find it baffling, it's because that's not what people are doing, or are arguing against. It has nothing to do with genre. I said it earlier and it bears repeating apparently. People don't like the Drizzt clone because it's way overdone (way more than any other literary character), in combination of a min/maxed build, which also irks a lot of people. Drizzt has turned into the face of D&D FR, and is pushed everywhere. Just look at the most recent ad trailer for OotA. For someone who can be omitted in the actual adventure, he sure has a lot of screen time.

Because people's Conan clone isn't min/maxed? Or their Merlin clone? Or Gandalf?

I don't know about your tables, but, I've seen far, far more Conan's than Drizz't's.

Personally, I think the "hate" has much more to do with it being cool to hate Drizzt than any actual issues of substance.

 

[Sacrosanct]

Because people's Conan clone isn't min/maxed? Or their Merlin clone? Or Gandalf?

No, unless the player specifically has that goal. Drizzt is built to be min/maxed, between double weapon spec and drow abilities; his core attributes are all about min/maxing. Not necessarily true with the others.

I don't know about your tables, but, I've seen far, far more Conan's than Drizz't's.

This is just going to have to be a difference in anecdotal experiences then. I have people who play barbarians, but you don't know if it's supposed to be a conan clone, Krull clone, or Fafhrd clone. Most aren't clones, but general similarities. Drizzt is pretty specific. But either way, your anecdotal experience and my anecdotal experience don't really matter. What is objectively true when D&D is considered, is that Drizzt appears much more frequently than any of those you mention. And not by a small amount. I'd say do a google search, but I don't want to scar your brain by the sheer amount of fanfic that's out there for Drizzt that isn't out there for Conan, Gandalf, or Merlin.

Personally, I think the "hate" has much more to do with it being cool to hate Drizzt than any actual issues of substance.

It's cool to hate on DRizzt! Wow, I never knew. I'm so glad I'm one of the cool kids now....

Or more likely, I'm tired of seeing him pop up everytime I turn around in D&D for the past 30 years. He's one of the worst Gary Stu's out there, and he's nearly unavoidable. One can't even escape him with current D&D products. In fact, WotC is doubling down on the DRizzt overload. Your statement makes no sense at all because there's literally 30 years of substance myself and others have been giving you as to reasons why we're sick and tired of him. Christ, he's been in over 30 novels, and that's not counting video games, magazines, or adventures. So either you're intentionally ignoring all of that, or you're being intellectually dishonest to make a jab at people who don't like him by saying there's no valid reason to be tired of him.

FWIW, I don't blame Salvatore at all. DRizzt was only supposed to be a sidekick to Wulfgar, but gamers fell in love with him (for reasons I mentioned earlier).