Harassment At PaizoCon 2017 - Page 10
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  1. #91
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    I love threads like this, because it allows me to add names to a list I keep of people whose opinions I can safely classify as worthy of no consideration at all.

    If we don't talk about the stupid, terrible things that people do and why they're unacceptable, then we strengthen those who act like churlish numbwits and demean those who were actually harmed by the behavior. Paizo's response troubles me, mainly because it makes me question whether this behavior is the sort of thing I want to support with my hard-earned money. I really expected better of them and hope they are sincere in taking steps to be better. If they're not, then I'm afraid they're going to lose my business.
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  2. #92
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    Quote Originally Posted by shidaku View Post
    The same is true here. If we don't shoot for the moon, I can guarantee you we'll never reach it.
    Yes and on the other hand we have already got to the moon. Now it is just quibbling about the number of people that get there.

  3. #93
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shasarak View Post
    Yes and on the other hand we have already got to the moon. Now it is just quibbling about the number of people that get there.

    Just to torture the analogy further, when you get to the moon, you don't stop. You try to make it easier, and you learn about the moon.

  4. #94
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    I didnt really follow all the strange analogies. Is somebody suggesting weve reached the moon in terms of dealing with harassment in our community? We havent. Were not even the Wright Brothers yet. Were still shooting for the moon.
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  5. #95
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    I have been weighing my response to this comment section since yesterday because first, I was really angry at some of the horrible replies a few people felt were appropriate...but Morrus moderates this stuff well and doesn't need me coming in and mixing it up. And several people have responded with much more clarity, compassion, and common sense, which makes me wonder if my reply is needed.

    After stewing on it a bit, I think I still have a few moments of perspective that could be useful, so here goes.

    I am a woman in the game business so these issues are more than a matter of individual bad-actors being gross in my hobby. This is my livelihood. This is my workplace environment, for me personally and for those who do work for the company I co-own. I have been in this business for 28 years now and one of the benefits of my longevity is that I know a lot of other game pros. I have relationships with these people going back decades at this point. I am also in a position of power that comes from that perseverence and the status of the company I have been managing for the last 17 years. In short, schmucks and creepers don't try that behavior with me or, generally, even in my vicinity because I have more power than they do and they rightly anticipate that I am not someone they can bully, belittle, or harass and come out unscathed.

    Over the course of my career in games, I have been active in our professional organizations (such as they are). I served on the board of the Game Manufacturers Association, whose two most consistent and influentual benefits were (and continue to be) putting on the GAMA Trade Show (focused on business to business communications between industry professionals) and the Origins Game Expo (consumer-facing, tabletop gaming convention with a significant attendance of professionals as well as fans, players, and hobbyists). For the last several years I have also been a volunteer on the advisory committee for one of the significant programming tracks at GenCon where professionals and experts in the various categories of tabletop gaming and adjacent interests (such as podcasting, hosting smaller regional conventions and games days, working with crossover media material and more) are invited to participate as Featured Presenters on a curated track of programming (think Ted Talks for Gamers). My years of involvement with organizations specifically concerned with conventions and convention programming, I think I have a somewhat more informed understanding about issues such as attendee safety, volunteer agreements, and liability (both in the legal sense and in the social responsibility sense, which have different standards).

    In discussing Bill Webb's behavior in this thread I have seen a few people willing to offer him the "but he was drunk and people do sometimes when they're drunk..." excuse. This excuse doesn't fly for reasons others have already elaborated upon but I will tell you SPECIFICALLY why it cannot be used to soften the criticism against Bill in particular. Bill is not an occasional drunk. He is a routine, PROUD heavy-drinker. Inviting him, oo in the case of PaizoCon merely allowing him, to participate in your convention means not that he "might" be drunk but that he WILL be drunk and he's already shown that he cannot be trusted to behave according to expected standards when drunk.

    This is not even remotely "insider information". Take a look at this screenshot of what appeared on the Frog God Games social media page recently, which was posted after the subject of Bill's behavior at PaizoCon crossed into being talked about openly instead of being debated behind the scenes:

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    The timing of that post? Not a coincidence, folks. The "mightiest king of the cons" is proud of his drinking prowess and he's going to bring it, literally, to "any convention".

    That is far more than enough to make responsible convention organizers take note and weigh the potential liabilites of allowing this person to participate. It's *plenty* for other professionals to decide that "he's always been nice to me" doesn't jusitfy giving this person cover for his behavior out in the world. Folks less inclined than BJ Hensley to try to make peace and be "fair" to other parties might look at the timing and content of that posting and come to the conclusion that the "mightiest king of the cons" was, in fact, doubling down on his behavior and all but daring people to challenge him. I'm NEVER going to dictate to BJ what she should or should not do in response to her own experience but any self-righteous keyboard warrior who wants to engage in baseless speculation from the safety of their distant basement about what a victim of someone else's inappropriate behavior "SHOULD" do? You don't get a say. Sorry, I know that's a blow to your ego, especially when you're convinced you're being so rational and "fair" in your assessment but that little scenario is all in your head and this IS NOT ABOUT YOU, CHUM. And if you want to fight about it you can fight me and leave BJ out of it. I am placing myself in the path of every cretin who thinks they're entitled to take shots at the *victims* of harassment, or to declare what's "enough" harm. You will go through me and those like me before we give space to people who cannot be trusted to behave like civilized adults and the supporters who prioritize bad actors above the people they hurt.

    Nicole Lindroos
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  6. #96
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    I own a number of Frog God products, and have particularly enjoyed playing and reading Matt Finch's adventures, but I won't be buying from them anymore.

    Glad to see stories like this covered here. The headline was very kind to Mr. Webb. "Harassment at PaizoCon 2017" could easily have read "Bill Webb, CEO of Frog God Games, Accused of Sexual Harassment".
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  7. #97
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    Quote Originally Posted by redrick View Post
    I own a number of Frog God products, and have particularly enjoyed playing and reading Matt Finch's adventures, but I won't be buying from them anymore.

    Glad to see stories like this covered here. The headline was very kind to Mr. Webb. "Harassment at PaizoCon 2017" could easily have read "Bill Webb, CEO of Frog God Games, Accused of Sexual Harassment".
    Yeah me too. I have a bunch of Frog God Games content including 3 of thier huge Hardcover books. I wont be buying anything from them any more. The only power a consumer has is to vote with thier dollars and I'm voting with mine. And if anyone asks me I'll be sure to tell them why.

  8. #98
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    Quote Originally Posted by Obryn View Post
    Probably in a vacuum, this would suffice. But there's the other NDA allegation, Price's allegation that she was asked to keep quiet on harassment while employed there, plus the child abuse demon who gives his followers magic child abuse powers that mirror how real-world abusers operate.
    Do you want to change the Book of the Damned to the Book of the Naughty? In a game designed around killing things for their stuff?

  9. #99
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shasarak View Post
    Yes and on the other hand we have already got to the moon. Now it is just quibbling about the number of people that get there.
    To continue to torture my own analogy: and then we stopped. We set up our flag and called it a day. THAT is what is unacceptable. We haven't continuted to shoot for the moon. We got there, walked around once, put up our flag and called it good enough. That's not good enough.

    So to bring this back to human race relations? We're not even close. Worse than that, a lot of people have stopped trying and that's the problem. D&D is trying, even if it's two steps forward, one step back every time they do, it's still trying to be better.

    The idea that everything is hunky-dory is so incredibly privileged, white and male-centric that you made me put all those words in a post just to say it.
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  10. #100
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shasarak View Post
    Do you want to change the Book of the Damned to the Book of the Naughty? In a game designed around killing things for their stuff?
    I wasn't going to post here, because i've not been around enworld for years, but this is patently, utterly ludicrous.

    I can only assume you've not read it, or you want to make some sort of 'har har, edgy' argument.

    The text and specifically the rules are mechanically incentivised child abuse. You become better at child abuse the more of it you do. And more charismatic, because of course you do.

    This wasn't something they had to do, no one forced them into writing this, no one forced them into publishing it, no one forced them to give:

    Unnatural Lust: Force the victim to initiate - they started it, they wanted it
    Mind Wipe: Wipe their memory of the event
    Veil: Make them look like your perfect victim.

    These are powers deliberately chosen (and what the heck was Unnatural Lust doing in the game in the first place) to directly, magically mimic what real child abusers do. I know, personally.

    Furthermore, none of us have been killed by orcs, but people in our communities have been abused. Trivialising it as you do is insulting and utterly crass. And I get that you don't care, because you just want to be dismissive and cool, but there are people who have quite genuinely experienced upset and reminder of what happend to them because of how Paizo did it.

    And Paizo's CCO, Erik Mona, has admitted it was a mistake, an error in judgement. Which is great, and a step, but a long way to go.


    But you know, keep trivialising child abuse, because who cares, right?

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