D&D 5E Running D&D 5e for Levels 10+

CapnZapp said:

What amazes me with the continued defense of the weak MM stats is that it relies on doing things I imagine few groups would find actually fun.

Most players of D&D want and expect the BBEG to stand there, daring the party members to challenge it.

To me, if the only way a dragon can be a tough combat encounter is if it stays off the combat map, and resorts to cowardly tactics, that is itself a miserable failure.

The entire complaint is this:

We want iconic monsters (and it doesn't get more iconic than dragons) to be able to land in the middle of the party, and to actually use its claws, bite, breath etc on the heroes, without having to worry about getting instakilled pathetic-style.

I'm sure there are some sneaky critters for which underhanded tactics that mostly frustrate the players are appropriate but dragons sure aren't them.

To most of us, that's not much to ask. In fact, that's just our minimal expectation.

Trying to justify the weak stats by suggesting the dragon should deny the players their big set-piece combat far from salvages the MM stats - instead it just confirms that our complaints are valid and something needs to be done.

We expect - nay demand - that each edition's monster design takes into account what the PHB hands out to players. If the PHB gives out ways to, say, shut down flight at mid-level, for instance, then appropriate-CR flying foes better come equipped with a counter to that, built right into their stat block. Having a dragon be helpless to the trivial strategy to immobilize it so it drops from the sky like a rock is piss-poor design.

Please don't try to hide this, let alone justify it.

Especially cut the crap about "intelligent" foes. I'm dead tired of the notion that all a designer needs to do is to slap "Int 20" onto an otherwise uninspired mediocre stat block, and suddenly it's on the DM to make that work. I call bullcrap!

Click to expand...

See this sounds like a pretty boring encounter to me, where each side just takes its turn wailing on the other in a race to deplete HP. I’d also say that I can think of very few examples of dragons doing that. In most instances of dragons in literature and pop culture, they tend to use their flight, speed, and breath weapon far more than they rely on brute strength.

But this simply shows how different opinions may be and how you can’t please everyone.

However, since you’ve stated what it is that you want from the dragon, why not simply increase its HP by a ton, or grant it resistance to all damage? Maybe increase its number of Legendary Actions? Increase its damage on all attacks by +5 or +1d8.

Make the dragon a brute. It’s pretty easy to do so. Other suggestions have focused on making it more effective in combat, but you can just as easily simply make it more capable of absorbing and/or dealing damage.

I realize this still “lets the designers off the hook”, but again, we’re talking about actual possible solutions to problems found in high level play. Blaming the designers for not understanding your preffered style of play and catering to it above others solves nothing.

Cap'n Kobold said:

Hence the dichotomy: The MM can work when the DM plays a monster like a stupid meatsack against players with a similar grasp of tactics, both in combat, and in character optimisation.
It can also work when the DM uses cunning tactics against a party that have optimised their characters and relish the challenge of tactical problems.
It falls down however, both where the DM plays optimally but the players don't want to (they find countering the tactics unfun, and lose charaters), and where the players are optimised but the DM doesn't want to: - (The party wins too easily, making it unfun for the DM and possibly also the players.)

Click to expand...

The problem is that the players have two avenues of optimization (clever tactics, and character design), while the DM is limited to only the one (clever tactics). All else being equal, matched wits should produce an even challenge, but it's not equal because the dragon has terrible stats.

The DM doesn't really have the freedom to optimize a dragon's stats and powers to provide better synergy, because that would change its CR. Challenge Rating in 5E is a descriptive term, based on its actual effectiveness. An optimized barbarian or warrior is the same level as an organic character of the same level, but an optimized dragon would be a higher CR than an organic dragon, so it remains the case that a dragon can't challenge a party of equal level, because if it was stronger then the equal level would be higher.

The only circumstance where the dragon can hold its own is when the DM demonstrates significantly better tactics than the party, to make up for the dragon's inferior stats. And that's not always possible, assuming the players are equally as clever as the DM.

I don't see the argument about different play styles, at least, not really.

As currently stat'd, Dragons can play up to their CR value if they do the sneaky, un-fun stuff that Cap'n Kobold pointed out and that Sacrosanct apparently seems to love. These are all legit tactics that a highly intelligent monster would use to ensure survival.

But a dragon that swoops in, grapples one pc, flies miles away, drops them for instant death, then returns to do the same later in the day does not create a fun experience for anyone at the gaming table, I can't imagine. Maybe a killer DM finds that fun, I dunno.

It also doesn't feel like how a dragon fight should go. That kind of skirmish type tactic feels out of place on an arrogant red dragon who believes itself to be a god, you know? For some evil fey? Yes. For an assassin's guild? Certainly. For a young black dragon in its swamp? Sure, ok. For an ancient blue? Seems out of place.

Please note: Unlike the charge above ("players who prefer min/maxing and treating combat like a tactical boardgame with no actual role-playing of the opponents but instead treating them no more than statblocks" ), which is completely erroneous, this complaint is rooted in roleplaying. It doesn't feel like an epic encounter with a formidable foe who can take your best shots and give it back to you, arrogantly describing how it will annihilate you all the while...not when it's engaging like a skirmisher who can't afford a single error or the PCs will toast it.

Here's a question: What are dragon fights like in myth? Did the dragon use hit-and-run tactics? Did it rarely expose itself? Did it go toe-to-toe with its opponent(s)? Genuinely asking.

Saelorn said:

The problem is that the players have two avenues of optimization (clever tactics, and character design), while the DM is limited to only the one (clever tactics). All else being equal, matched wits should produce an even challenge, but it's not equal because the dragon has terrible stats.

The DM doesn't really have the freedom to optimize a dragon's stats and powers to provide better synergy, because that would change its CR. Challenge Rating in 5E is a descriptive term, based on its actual effectiveness. An optimized barbarian or warrior is the same level as an organic character of the same level, but an optimized dragon would be a higher CR than an organic dragon, so it remains the case that a dragon can't challenge a party of equal level, because if it was stronger then the equal level would be higher.

The only circumstance where the dragon can hold its own is when the DM demonstrates significantly better tactics than the party, to make up for the dragon's inferior stats. And that's not always possible, assuming the players are equally as clever as the DM.

Click to expand...

I have to strongly disagree with this. The DM actually more tools at his disposal to modify monsters and NPCs. The DM decides the extent to which he does or does not do so. It’s a choice on the DM’s part, and I think many young or beginning DMs are well served by being reminded of this.

The DM can add:
- Legendary Actions and Legendary Resistance
- Lair Actions
- Spellcasting or Spell Like Abilities
- Class Abilities
- Magic Items (consummables such as potions are a great way to bolster a monster without giving the PCs a bunch of loot)
- Abilities from other Monsters
- Unique or Homebrew Abilities
- Clever Tactics
- Environmental conditions or effects that strengthen the Monster

And although it is possible that the CR of the creature could be affected by using one or more of these elements, my question is so what? CR is a tool to help a DM, not a constraint to limit the DM. Far better that the PCs have an engaging encounter rather than one that adhered to the CR guidelines.

CR is like training wheels for a DM. Helpful at first to keep things steady, but once they’ve served their purpose, best to get rid of them.

The DM has so much at his or her disposal. Some DMs may decide not to use all the tools at their disposal, and that’s fine...but that’s a choice and needs to be acknowledged as such.

We shouldn’t be telling newer DMs who are facing challenges running the game at high level that there’s nothing they can do about it, or that the designers dropped the ball....we should try to help them improve their experience.

Eric V said:

/snip

Here's a question: What are dragon fights like in myth? Did the dragon use hit-and-run tactics? Did it rarely expose itself? Did it go toe-to-toe with its opponent(s)? Genuinely asking.

Click to expand...

Typically one shotted by some armored dude on a horse. Of course, dragons in myth tend to be a LOT smaller than D&D dragons.

See, something that got changed in D&D over the years is the inflation of the dragon. Remember back in 1e, dragons weren't all that big. 50-80 HP range (for the vast majority of dragons, Reds topped out a 96) in a game where your 6-8 PC's could easily deal that in a couple of rounds.

The first Dragonlance module is for 5th level. Ends with an ancient, huge black dragon that the PC's are very much expected to curb stomp. And, generally, they do. You want big dragon encounters in 1e, bring more dragons.

And, look at dragons from pop-culture. We don't have the bombing into an empty room, standing in the middle of the mob getting chopped to bits. No, they are in dark, dangerous places where the environment is an issue (Dragonslayer, for example). They don't stand in the middle of the mob. They stand off and breathe fire. The idea of dragon as melee combatant is a 3e invention, largely. Dragons were always ranged combatants in virtually every other edition.

*mis-post*

Saelorn said:

The problem is that the players have two avenues of optimization (clever tactics, and character design), while the DM is limited to only the one (clever tactics). All else being equal, matched wits should produce an even challenge, but it's not equal because the dragon has terrible stats.

The DM doesn't really have the freedom to optimize a dragon's stats and powers to provide better synergy, because that would change its CR. Challenge Rating in 5E is a descriptive term, based on its actual effectiveness. An optimized barbarian or warrior is the same level as an organic character of the same level, but an optimized dragon would be a higher CR than an organic dragon, so it remains the case that a dragon can't challenge a party of equal level, because if it was stronger then the equal level would be higher.

The only circumstance where the dragon can hold its own is when the DM demonstrates significantly better tactics than the party, to make up for the dragon's inferior stats. And that's not always possible, assuming the players are equally as clever as the DM.

Click to expand...

Sorry what?

If a monster is listed as CR 15 but performs more like CR 10, why shouldn't we ask the designers to amp it up?

Of all the reasons I've heard, "it would change the CR" is one I don't get. CRs are not exact science anyway.

Sent from my C6603 using EN World mobile app

hawkeyefan said:

And although it is possible that the CR of the creature could be affected by using one or more of these elements, my question is so what?

Click to expand...

So, the topic at hand is how to challenge a party without using monsters that are way above the level of the party. Nobody's arguing that an adult red dragon isn't impressive or scary against a level 5 party.

hawkeyefan said:

We shouldn’t be telling newer DMs who are facing challenges running the game at high level that there’s nothing they can do about it, or that the designers dropped the ball....we should try to help them improve their experience.

Click to expand...

Just because we can try to mitigate some of the problems with high level games through judicious content generation and throwing the CR guidelines out the window, that doesn't mean the designers didn't drop the ball. They definitely did. They don't get a free pass, just because we can do some extra work to make up for their shortcomings.

There is an issue with creating super-powerful monsters, though, which is where they fit into the world. I shouldn't need every ancient wyrm to be imbued with the Power Cosmic before it can burn down one lakeside town. But if I just give everything better stats, and pretend that it's the same thing, then I'm not even playing in that world anymore. Why did I buy the Monster Manual if I have to change all of the numbers in order for the monsters to be usable? (The previous edition of Exalted had a similar problem, where difficulties would theoretically range from 1-5, but starting characters could average 10+ successes on every check; as the ST, you're forced into the dilemma of either letting the PCs stomp over the entire setting with no opposition, or making everyone else equally impossibly competent in order to provide a slight challenge.)

And unless I want to completely throw the XP rules out the window along with the CR guidelines, the first super-dragon that the party does manage to defeat will give them an entire level or more. You don't want to know how much XP the level 17 party in my game gained when they beat that Archmage-Lich-AncientBlackDragon-DoubleKraken.

I'd love to see the thread get back to the original issue of how to challenge high level parties. I've got six 15th level characters with feats and a good amount of magic. I have the next few weeks of play figured out but it would be fun to see how other DM's challenge that sort of party.

bgbarcus said:

I'd love to see the thread get back to the original issue of how to challenge high level parties. I've got six 15th level characters with feats and a good amount of magic. I have the next few weeks of play figured out but it would be fun to see how other DM's challenge that sort of party.

Click to expand...

What more do you want? I just ran a game the other day for a group of level 16 PCs and because of time constraints only had a handful of fights (I usually try to do 6-8 encounters between long rests). Because it was a turning-point in the campaign it was more difficult than usual. I had near TPKs, using a variety of monsters.

How did I do it? Well in one encounter I modified a couple of monsters. For example I added armor to a T-Rex and gave it extra acid damage (it had demonic ichor), I created a custom orcish leader that had a big boom spell (targeting Con saves) following the rules from the DMG and threw in a bunch of orcish warlords, some of them on top of a cliff where they were difficult to target.

The warlords did their "give everyone advantage" and then targeted individuals with ranged attacks and had waves of orcs attack. In addition I threw several encounters that were "deadly" by the guidelines.

The final fight was really straightforward. A NPC using a Balor's statistics and White Maws that "melted" into the room and filled it up. They may have been able to deal with this earlier, but by this point they were low on spells and resources.

So if you have a problem challenging players I'd just say throw more stuff at them. Keep doing it until they run out of resources and then throw more.

A different group may have been better able to deal with the attacks, but attacking in waves, from multiple directions with multiple types of attacks and damage worked well. Yes, some high level spells will trash your encounters. That's why you have to limit long rests.

Of course all of this depends on your players as well. Some people like being challenged (and this last game was more challenging than most), others don't.

In addition the advice I've posted before:
[SBLOCK]
Suggestions:

• Use better tactics. Take advantage of cover and environment. For example small foes can use small tunnels with tiny openings that are too small for medium size creatures to go through.
• Send waves. At higher levels wizards can do a lot of damage, so don't send all the foes at once.
• Flank. Related to sending in waves, have weaker foes run in from the obvious direction while the real foes come around the back
• Illusion. That BBEG? Well it's an illusion. The real BBEG is hiding around the corner. Note if a target isn't legitimate for a spell, I don't make the caster expend a spell slot. So if they try to banish the illusion it doesn't work but they also don't use the spell slot.
• Number of combats between rests. It really does help to have 6-8 encounters with only 1-2 short rests. I use the alternate rules where a short rest is overnight and a long rest is a week or more because it works better for my campaign pacing. But if you have multiple fights, the wizard is going to hold off on that meteor storm until it's really effective. We also frequently have multiple game sessions without a long rest - people do need to take notes of where the left off.
• Obstacles/goals other than killing stuff. Too often it's go there kill the bad guy. What if you have to instead save the prince? What if your could survive but the prince is squishy? How do you protect him.
• Use custom monsters. Follow the guide in the DMG to make new monsters, they're frequently much tougher than what's listed in the MM. Or depending on budget look at 3rd party books like Kobold Press's Tome of Monsters.

Specifically for higher levels, things that I do are (I mix and match the below a lot)

• Monsters have advantage on a regular basis. I justify it multiple ways, or just secretly roll it.
• Do more damage. Not just more damage, but more types of damage. Particularly useful for my wife's half-orc character that has resistance to weapon damage. The BBEG has a sword made of lightning.
• Attack more. Bonus actions or just multiple attacks.
• Attacks that do more than damage. Taking people out of the fight is boring, but restraining them with a giant tentacle that is slowly crushing them? Go for it.
• Transformations. This one is a little trickier (and to do justice would take more time than I have) but instead of making monsters big bags of HP, have them change at certain points. At a 2/3 of their HP they lose some AC but start blindly flailing getting more attacks at a bonus. At 1/3 their HP their acidic/demonic blood is spraying everywhere causing automatic damage (or constitution save for half). When they die they explode.
• Spiritual allies. Instead of giving a monster minions that can be killed, they send out spiritual allies (inspired by a cleric's spiritual weapon) that can attack as a bonus action
• Counterspell. This one can be annoying if overused, but give the enemy casters counterspell. If you really want to be mean, the enemy caster is a sorcerer that can cast without verbal or somatic so their counter can't be countered.
• Ranged attacks. Almost all creatures have effective range attacks or can get to people that are flying away.
• Different saves. I make up a lot of monsters. So sometimes it's going to be strength saves, sometimes it's going to be intelligence and so on. I don't pick on individuals, but I do try to vary what I'm targeting.

[/SBLOCK]