D&D 5E Xanathar’s Guide to Everything is the fastest-selling Dungeons & Dragons book of all time

happyhermit · Dec 18, 2017

Parmandur said:
... With Beyond, WotC takes no server or development costs, and just accepts the checks. That is profit in it's purest form.

Plus D&D Beyond marketing also contributes to overall D&D marketing (which seems rather limited in any conventional means, do they ever run ads?), the videos they are sponsoring on Youtube are top notch and in no way specific to their program.

Mistwell · Dec 27, 2017

Xanathar's Guide to Everything is at #28 right now on Amazon.
PHB #44
MM #65
DMG #75

collin · Dec 27, 2017

Hussar said:
But, that's not how business works.

Say it takes 20000 copies sold to break even on a book. I could sell 20000 copies of an infinite number of titles and never make a dime, even though my gross sales are infinite. And, in fact, that's largely what 3e and 4e looked like. You don't make 30 dollars on a 30 dollar book. WotC probably makes about 7 bucks on that book. So, 20k copies sold is 140k dollars, which, after you pay for everything, is probably close to break even.

3e and 4e, other than the core books, rarely saw sales much more than about 20-40k copies on any given book. Which meant that most of the books they were publishing were breaking even, but, not much more. In a publicly traded company with share holders, that's a problem.

5e, OTOH, has the goal of 100k copies of every single publication. And, by all accounts, they are meeting or exceeding that goal. Even with modules, which is practically unheard of since the fad years. But, the break even point for those books is still probably about 20k copies. Meaning that even though gross sales might be less in 5e, they are making far, far more profit.

It goes back to the old saw that selling two times as many copies of one book is far more profitable than regular sales of three books, even though the latter has sold 50% more books in total.

I basically agree with your assessment, even without the supporting data to back it up. However, I think there is one exception, and that is that it would take ~20,000 copies sold of the current 5e books for WotC to break-even. I realize this was just a hypothetical number on your part, but bare with me here. A lot of the newer books were farmed out to other companies/groups to create vs. doing it in-house. Hiring vendors adds another dynamic to the formula. So, it's possible WotC's breakeven point is < or > 20,000 (i.e., break-even number) books, depending on how much they are paying vendors to write them vs. in-house people doing it. If the cost is less (which is probably a more likely scenario), then profitability obviously would be even greater with the 5e books than previous editions.

Parmandur · Dec 27, 2017

Mistwell said:
Xanathar's Guide to Everything is at #28 right now on Amazon.
PHB #44
MM #65
DMG #75

Merry Christmas.

Sent from my [device_name] using EN World mobile app

Parmandur · Dec 27, 2017

collin said:
I basically agree with your assessment, even without the supporting data to back it up. However, I think there is one exception, and that is that it would take ~20,000 copies sold of the current 5e books for WotC to break-even. I realize this was just a hypothetical number on your part, but bare with me here. A lot of these newer books are being farmed out to other companies/groups to create vs. doing it in-house. Hiring vendors adds another dynamic to the formula. So, it's possible WotC's breakeven point is < or > 20,000 (i.e., break-even number) books, depending on how much they are paying vendors to write them vs. in-house people doing it. If the cost is less (which is probably a more likely scenario), then profitability obviously would be even greater with the 5e books than previous editions.

It's been over two years since WotC has done an outsourced D&D book.

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GreyLord · Jan 2, 2018

Mistwell said:
Are you saying they are lying, or not? It's a pretty simple question.

Depends on your definition of lying.

If I said...5e sold more Books than the core books of the 3e...technically that's the truth (which is what Mearls seems to do a LOT), but the implication that 5e has made more gross than 3e/3.5e would be the lie (IMO, obviously).

Technically, he told the truth, but the way people interpret it, is the lie. It seems this type of double talk comes out of WOTC a LOT these days. (heck, it comes from more than just WotC to be honest, it comes from ALL directions).

The reason this edition has more legs is WotC has been gutted. It is a LOT easier to support a smaller department than it is a larger one. You may produce less, but you have less expenditures...not just in salaries, but also office space, and other venues of cost. Personnel may not be the only way to show how something is actually doing, but it can be a good indicator on how it's actually doing compared to how it has done in the past. There is a little automation that can be done in the RPG rulebook arena, but the majority of it in regards to creativity, editing, marketing still require manpower as opposed to animation. Thus I'd say that the amount of employees is directly relatable to how much money they are bringing in and how valuable Hasbro actually sees the brand as being currently.

Don't mistake my statements as wanting more books however. I am STRONGLY in favor of 5e having an even SLOWER release schedule...sticking as closely to the core books and only the corebooks for my personal preference.

I think people are mistaking the double speak for meaning one thing when it is, in fact stating something else and being interpreted as saying something. I think 5e is doing reasonably well, but it is NO LONGER trying to be the tentpole that they were trying to make it in the 3e and 4e days. Instead, they are happy to be relegated to the backroom where there is not as much Executive oversight and visits as there were previously.

RPGs may be making larger inroads than they were for the past decade prior...and that's a good thing, especially for Hasbro...but I don't think it's as big a market or massive fan appeal as some make it seem in this thread. It still has a LOOONG way to go for that. It may be hard to see that as rabid fans as we are (why else would we even be on ENworld), but we have a LOOONG way to go until we even approach the numbers that something as simple as the X-men (much less the Avengers, Harry Potter, or Star Wars) have in a fanbase and appeal among the general public.

GreyLord · Jan 2, 2018

collin said:
I basically agree with your assessment, even without the supporting data to back it up. However, I think there is one exception, and that is that it would take ~20,000 copies sold of the current 5e books for WotC to break-even. I realize this was just a hypothetical number on your part, but bare with me here. A lot of these newer books are being farmed out to other companies/groups to create vs. doing it in-house. Hiring vendors adds another dynamic to the formula. So, it's possible WotC's breakeven point is < or > 20,000 (i.e., break-even number) books, depending on how much they are paying vendors to write them vs. in-house people doing it. If the cost is less (which is probably a more likely scenario), then profitability obviously would be even greater with the 5e books than previous editions.

Well, one good side of a slow release as WotC has been doing is that you can extend the sales of the books. The strategy they are doing today (whether they realize it or not) is more focused on the core rulebooks and extending that sales type out.

A basic idea of this would be that when they are initially released they sell gobs of the core rulebooks. We'll say a million just for numbers (not a real stat here). After the first six months that sales dies down tremendously (we'll say they are now selling only 10K of books). They need to reinvigorate those sales. They need something to hype it back up, hence the module that comes along. People get excited, new people get curious, and that sparks a new set of core rulebook sales. Thus now you sell 100K, not quite up to the original release, but pretty good.

The idea is to string this along as long as possible. Thus, if you have a real lag, you release a new rules supplement (we'll call it the Sword Coast Adventurer's guide), which in itself creates interest, but more important, raises the profile and the sales of the core rulebooks once again.

This is important because in this strategy, you can actually have a more profitable rulebook sales than in the 4e style of selling everything and the kitchen sink in 2 years. The rulebook is written. The work is done. The only cost now is to print more and ship them. The other costs of writing, editing, layout, and everything else is already completed. Other than the production costs...it's basically free money. By pushing the core rulebooks in this type of strategy, you get books that are more profitable in the long run.

At least that's how I see it.

In otherwords, making a profit on the newly (but much shorter) rulebooks is nice, but that is secondary to their real nature, which is to promote the core rulebooks, and if possible promote the brand (as there are other D&D products out there now, such as the boardgames that are being produced).

In my opinion.

collin · Jan 2, 2018

Parmandur said:
It's been over two years since WotC has done an outsourced D&D book.

Sent from my [device_name] using EN World mobile app

Ahhh, thanks for pointing that out.

Parmandur · Jan 2, 2018

GreyLord said:
Depends on your definition of lying.

If I said...5e sold more Books than the core books of the 3e...technically that's the truth (which is what Mearls seems to do a LOT), but the implication that 5e has made more gross than 3e/3.5e would be the lie (IMO, obviously).

Technically, he told the truth, but the way people interpret it, is the lie. It seems this type of double talk comes out of WOTC a LOT these days. (heck, it comes from more than just WotC to be honest, it comes from ALL directions).

The reason this edition has more legs is WotC has been gutted. It is a LOT easier to support a smaller department than it is a larger one. You may produce less, but you have less expenditures...not just in salaries, but also office space, and other venues of cost. Personnel may not be the only way to show how something is actually doing, but it can be a good indicator on how it's actually doing compared to how it has done in the past. There is a little automation that can be done in the RPG rulebook arena, but the majority of it in regards to creativity, editing, marketing still require manpower as opposed to animation. Thus I'd say that the amount of employees is directly relatable to how much money they are bringing in and how valuable Hasbro actually sees the brand as being currently.

Don't mistake my statements as wanting more books however. I am STRONGLY in favor of 5e having an even SLOWER release schedule...sticking as closely to the core books and only the corebooks for my personal preference.

I think people are mistaking the double speak for meaning one thing when it is, in fact stating something else and being interpreted as saying something. I think 5e is doing reasonably well, but it is NO LONGER trying to be the tentpole that they were trying to make it in the 3e and 4e days. Instead, they are happy to be relegated to the backroom where there is not as much Executive oversight and visits as there were previously.

RPGs may be making larger inroads than they were for the past decade prior...and that's a good thing, especially for Hasbro...but I don't think it's as big a market or massive fan appeal as some make it seem in this thread. It still has a LOOONG way to go for that. It may be hard to see that as rabid fans as we are (why else would we even be on ENworld), but we have a LOOONG way to go until we even approach the numbers that something as simple as the X-men (much less the Avengers, Harry Potter, or Star Wars) have in a fanbase and appeal among the general public.

Not sure why it is "obvious" that 3E necessarily grossed more than 5E, all told. They put out more products, but it doesn't follow that they sold more of the side products: they split their own market tremendously and made it hard to get into. I bought one booking the 3.x era, as opposed to 12-13 5E books. Certainly they are making more profit now, which matters more than gross at any rate, but they could well be grossing more before net for all we know.

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ad_hoc · Jan 2, 2018

GreyLord said:
but we have a LOOONG way to go until we even approach the numbers that something as simple as the X-men (much less the Avengers, Harry Potter, or Star Wars) have in a fanbase and appeal among the general public.

1) The popularity of the X-Men is not 'simple'. It is a huge media empire that spans 55 years and took off in 2000 with successful blockbuster movies.

2) No one, including WotC, have claimed that D&D is as popular as the X-Men. Comparing D&D to Hollywood is ridiculous.

3) D&D is being compared to other books and hobby games. RPGs are still the smallest (major) market of hobby games, but they are also the fastest growing market. 5e is to RPGs as Settlers of Catan is to board games. RPG sales have more than tripled since 5e was released.