D&D 5E Xanathar’s Guide to Everything is the fastest-selling Dungeons & Dragons book of all time

ad_hoc

(they/them)
Not sure why it is "obvious" that 3E necessarily grossed more than 5E, all told. They put out more products, but it doesn't follow that they sold more of the side products: they split their own market tremendously and made it hard to get into. I bought one booking the 3.x era, as opposed to 12-13 5E books. Certainly they are making more profit now, which matters more than gross at any rate, but they could well be grossing more before net for all we know.

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The metric of core book sales is more interesting to me than total sales of all books.

It is a metric of how many people are playing the game. There is no implication of more total gross sales of all books here (even though that might actually be true like you said). The important point is that more people are playing 5e than 3.x and it's not even close.
 

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Mistwell

Crusty Old Meatwad (he/him)
Depends on your definition of lying.

If I said...5e sold more Books than the core books of the 3e...technically that's the truth (which is what Mearls seems to do a LOT), but the implication that 5e has made more gross than 3e/3.5e would be the lie (IMO, obviously).

Technically, he told the truth, but the way people interpret it, is the lie. It seems this type of double talk comes out of WOTC a LOT these days. (heck, it comes from more than just WotC to be honest, it comes from ALL directions).

I would say the double talk is you claiming it depends on your definition of a lie.

5e has made more gross than 3e/3.5e. Not core books (that was a much earlier response from Mearls), just total gross (the more recent data). That's not a lie, it's true. We have a lot of evidence to support that contention, including a lot of independent evidence which is not from Mike Mearls or Jeremy Crawford. In support of your contention that it's false is...your speculation.

We also know, from Hasbro quarterly reports, that D&D has actually taken MORE prominence than it previously did, not less. It now makes up a meaningful amount of Hasbro revenue and profit, where it never did before. And that's covered by FTC regulations concerning truth in reporting statements, as any mis-statement or exaggeration can subject the entire company to a shareholder lawsuit and FTC investigation.

I think your views on this topic are outdated, and not well informed by recent events. It sounds like you came to some conclusions earlier on in this edition, and are not aware of what's been happening in this past year. And I am not really inclined at the moment to go dig up links on the stuff you appear to have missed. But, I think you will find others here are aware of it, and if you care to go find it, it's available around here at EnWorld over the past year.
 
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GreyLord

Legend
I would say the double talk is you claiming it depends on your definition of a lie.

5e has made more gross than 3e/3.5e. Not core books (that was a much earlier response from Mearls), just total gross (the more recent data). That's not a lie, it's true. We have a lot of evidence to support that contention, including a lot of independent evidence which is not from Mike Mearls or Jeremy Crawford. In support of your contention that it's false is...your speculation.

We also know, from Hasbro quarterly reports, that D&D has actually taken MORE prominence than it previously did, not less. It now makes up a meaningful amount of Hasbro revenue and profit, where it never did before. And that's covered by FTC regulations concerning truth in reporting statements, as any mis-statement or exaggeration can subject the entire company to a shareholder lawsuit and FTC investigation.

I think your views on this topic are outdated, and not well informed by recent events. It sounds like you came to some conclusions earlier on in this edition, and are not aware of what's been happening in this past year. And I am not really inclined at the moment to go dig up links on the stuff you appear to have missed. But, I think you will find others here are aware of it, and if you care to go find it, it's available around here at EnWorld over the past year.

Can you post those stock reports. The ones I have seen show that the main draw from WotC is actually Magic and occasionally other itmes. D&D isn't really mentioned, and is not even trying to be a tentpole at this point. Of course, Hasbro has had other items last report which sent many scrambling, but it wasn't D&D (actually, people were probably selling because of the all time highs for it in July). Profits themselves are good, but I haven't seen nary much about D&D in the reports over more important (and importantly, tentpole) properties.

And until one sees the breakdown of what specifically each brand is bringing in, taking an interpretation of what Mearls stated may not be the best course of action. I'm not certain he said what you think he said (though it could be he plainly stated it, I expect it is more like what he said originally about the book sales when 5e was first released, which was VERY misleading to say the least...truthful...yes, but misinterpreted from what I saw by just about everyone who read it). If he stated it plainly, I'd probably like to see the numbers reflected (as well as the quote to make the judgement myself on whether he stated what you think he stated, as that could also imply something that could challenge for a higher significance in the WotC numbers.

Top of the Non-Fiction list isn't exactly rolling in doe. Heck, 90% of the time, top of the Fiction list isn't rolling in doe. With the reliance on Amazon...it's even less doe than it used to be (like 50% less).

Hasbro as a brand has done stellar (Despite the stock sell off recently and the rapid decrease in price between August and November). I'm not seeing the prominence of D&D in their reports that you are stating though. There may have been mentions, but there were some rather big mentions in 2000, 2001, and others...as well as 2008. The only REALLY big D&D report that may be notable enough in regards to comparison of the earlier ones that I saw was shortly after 5e was released. There hasn't been a ton of stuff recently. If you are saying there is more in the stock reports in any vague fashion than between 2010 -2013...well...that might not exactly be some stellar feat or anything that amazes anyone who has had Hasbro Stock for any length of time.

PS: I'm not saying D&D isn't doing well. I think it's doing well. I think that the idea that it has made more gross profits than other editions is Questonable. I would say that Mearls most likely said that the PHB (or even the core rulebooks) have sold more than any other edition (or even 3e and 4e combined) is the more likely statement. That is a FAR cry than saying it has made more gross than any other edition. I'm delighted with the state of 5e, but I'm not going to go off into thinking it has sold far more (in gross profits and total books) than any of the brands prior to it. Earlier editions had made ALMOST 50 million (though I'm not sure if there is an internet source for that, I think there was one of the producers who said it made almost 50 million ONE year, but unfortunately could not sustain that which meant that Hasbro's hopes for it to be a tentpole were not going to fly) in a year at some points. Normally it was 30 million or less. What we then would be looking at is D&D book sales that are bringing in at least 15 to 20 million, and despite how well D&D is doing, and their books being at the top of the non-fiction lists...I'm not sure I see D&D doing that presently.
 
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Parmandur

Book-Friend
Can you post those stock reports. The ones I have seen show that the main draw from WotC is actually Magic and occasionally other itmes. D&D isn't really mentioned, and is not even trying to be a tentpole at this point. Of course, Hasbro has had other items last report which sent many scrambling, but it wasn't D&D (actually, people were probably selling because of the all time highs for it in July). Profits themselves are good, but I haven't seen nary much about D&D in the reports over more important (and importantly, tentpole) properties.

And until one sees the breakdown of what specifically each brand is bringing in, taking an interpretation of what Mearls stated may not be the best course of action. I'm not certain he said what you think he said (though it could be he plainly stated it, I expect it is more like what he said originally about the book sales when 5e was first released, which was VERY misleading to say the least...truthful...yes, but misinterpreted from what I saw by just about everyone who read it). If he stated it plainly, I'd probably like to see the numbers reflected (as well as the quote to make the judgement myself on whether he stated what you think he stated, as that could also imply something that could challenge for a higher significance in the WotC numbers.

Top of the Non-Fiction list isn't exactly rolling in doe. Heck, 90% of the time, top of the Fiction list isn't rolling in doe. With the reliance on Amazon...it's even less doe than it used to be (like 50% less).

Hasbro as a brand has done stellar (Despite the stock sell off recently and the rapid decrease in price between August and November). I'm not seeing the prominence of D&D in their reports that you are stating though. There may have been mentions, but there were some rather big mentions in 2000, 2001, and others...as well as 2008. The only REALLY big D&D report that may be notable enough in regards to comparison of the earlier ones that I saw was shortly after 5e was released. There hasn't been a ton of stuff recently. If you are saying there is more in the stock reports in any vague fashion than between 2010 -2013...well...that might not exactly be some stellar feat or anything that amazes anyone who has had Hasbro Stock for any length of time.

PS: I'm not saying D&D isn't doing well. I think it's doing well. I think that the idea that it has made more gross profits than other editions is Questonable. I would say that Mearls most likely said that the PHB (or even the core rulebooks) have sold more than any other edition (or even 3e and 4e combined) is the more likely statement. That is a FAR cry than saying it has made more gross than any other edition. I'm delighted with the state of 5e, but I'm not going to go off into thinking it has sold far more (in gross profits and total books) than any of the brands prior to it. Earlier editions had made ALMOST 50 million (though I'm not sure if there is an internet source for that, I think there was one of the producers who said it made almost 50 million ONE year, but unfortunately could not sustain that which meant that Hasbro's hopes for it to be a tentpole were not going to fly) in a year at some points. Normally it was 30 million or less. What we then would be looking at is D&D book sales that are bringing in at least 15 to 20 million, and despite how well D&D is doing, and their books being at the top of the non-fiction lists...I'm not sure I see D&D doing that presently.
You are confusing "gross" and "profit" here: 2017 is, apparently, the most profitable year in the history of D&D, surpassing the second most profitable year of 2016. It doesn't matter if they grossed more in 2003 (who knows, maybe, maybe not), because they had a lower net profit.

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Mistwell

Crusty Old Meatwad (he/him)
Can you post those stock reports. The ones I have seen show that the main draw from WotC is actually Magic and occasionally other itmes. D&D isn't really mentioned, and is not even trying to be a tentpole at this point. Of course, Hasbro has had other items last report which sent many scrambling, but it wasn't D&D (actually, people were probably selling because of the all time highs for it in July). Profits themselves are good, but I haven't seen nary much about D&D in the reports over more important (and importantly, tentpole) properties.

And until one sees the breakdown of what specifically each brand is bringing in, taking an interpretation of what Mearls stated may not be the best course of action. I'm not certain he said what you think he said (though it could be he plainly stated it, I expect it is more like what he said originally about the book sales when 5e was first released, which was VERY misleading to say the least...truthful...yes, but misinterpreted from what I saw by just about everyone who read it). If he stated it plainly, I'd probably like to see the numbers reflected (as well as the quote to make the judgement myself on whether he stated what you think he stated, as that could also imply something that could challenge for a higher significance in the WotC numbers.

Top of the Non-Fiction list isn't exactly rolling in doe. Heck, 90% of the time, top of the Fiction list isn't rolling in doe. With the reliance on Amazon...it's even less doe than it used to be (like 50% less).

Hasbro as a brand has done stellar (Despite the stock sell off recently and the rapid decrease in price between August and November). I'm not seeing the prominence of D&D in their reports that you are stating though. There may have been mentions, but there were some rather big mentions in 2000, 2001, and others...as well as 2008. The only REALLY big D&D report that may be notable enough in regards to comparison of the earlier ones that I saw was shortly after 5e was released. There hasn't been a ton of stuff recently. If you are saying there is more in the stock reports in any vague fashion than between 2010 -2013...well...that might not exactly be some stellar feat or anything that amazes anyone who has had Hasbro Stock for any length of time.

PS: I'm not saying D&D isn't doing well. I think it's doing well. I think that the idea that it has made more gross profits than other editions is Questonable. I would say that Mearls most likely said that the PHB (or even the core rulebooks) have sold more than any other edition (or even 3e and 4e combined) is the more likely statement. That is a FAR cry than saying it has made more gross than any other edition. I'm delighted with the state of 5e, but I'm not going to go off into thinking it has sold far more (in gross profits and total books) than any of the brands prior to it. Earlier editions had made ALMOST 50 million (though I'm not sure if there is an internet source for that, I think there was one of the producers who said it made almost 50 million ONE year, but unfortunately could not sustain that which meant that Hasbro's hopes for it to be a tentpole were not going to fly) in a year at some points. Normally it was 30 million or less. What we then would be looking at is D&D book sales that are bringing in at least 15 to 20 million, and despite how well D&D is doing, and their books being at the top of the non-fiction lists...I'm not sure I see D&D doing that presently.

Like I said, I am not inclined to going to dig up links on information you've missed but which has already been discussed here plenty as it happened. The fact you mentioned "non-fiction" as opposed to "all books" alone tells me you are lacking in even basic awareness of how sales have ranked in this past year. You also keep mentioning Mearls and I don't know why. I suggest if you want to know more you get a camelcamelcamel account and look at the long term tracking, and then look at INDEPENDENT sources outside Mearls and Crawford (in addition to what they've said). But bottom line, I think you're behind in your data. If you want to go look information up, I encourage you do to so. But, I am not going to do your homework for you on this one...I just don't have the time, and I suspect anything I gave you would result in additional requests for even more data until you got to the point where you were asking for in-house trade secret numbers on exact quantity of sales for each book and each dollar gained for each sale and silliness on that level.

But for others reading what you're writing - I encourage you to research this yourself and I think you will find I am correct. This past year was literally the best year for D&D sales (overall) in the past 20 years. It well exceeded the launch year for the edition, which is unprecedented except for 1e AD&D.
 
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Gadget

Adventurer
I think it there is probably a valid point that the D&D WOTC section is leaner and meaner than it has been in the past (by all accounts). This no doubt contributes to the profit margin, but I think it would be a gross overestimation to think it is the sole or even main contributor to profits. IIRC, hasbro has actually mentioned D&D specifically in their earnings reports, whereas in the past it was hardly mentioned or not brought up at all. There was the quote from Hasbro's president a couple of years ago, after the release of 5e, that "D&D was on a tear", which if virtually unprecedented. This could be due to WOTC/Hasbro changing how each department profit/loss is measured or recorded, but that is speculative. Not to mention we have numerous statements from people in the know saying that sales have been through the roof for 5e, and exceed previous editions (with the possible exception of AD&D, due to the data being very...spotty from that time period).
 

Technically, he told the truth, but the way people interpret it, is the lie. It seems this type of double talk comes out of WOTC a LOT these days. (heck, it comes from more than just WotC to be honest, it comes from ALL directions).

I think this is overly cynically. I like a lot of what 5e has done, I dislike some, and occasionally I feel disappointed that they might be drifting from the initial design goals. But I've never felt that the designers were disingenuous. The fact that someone thinks a person is talking about A when they are really talking about B isn't evidence of deception. Rather, in my experience, interpretations of motive lie more in how much someone agrees with the decision rather than an actual reasoned analysis of the individuals presenting the information.

Example: Back in the design phase they talked about how 5e was going to focus a lot on story. "The story of D&D" was used as a phrase. This happened to be said around the same time frame that they were discussing the classic lore of the game, which monsters would make the MM, how they would be represented (surveys were involved), etc.

Now, for me, I thought that meant they would focus on the classic lore of the game a lot. When we actually saw publication, it became clear that there was a huge focus on the "current storyline" being published in a transmedia format. A couple of times a year there is a new campaign length adventure, organized play theme, video game tie-ins, etc, all based on that storyline.

Did they lie to make me believe they were focusing more on the classic lore that I desired, when in fact they meant an official storyline(s) of the year that aren't all that useful to my home games? Of course not. They weren't trying to pull one over on me. I just misunderstood a little bit.

And I wasn't even totally wrong. They actually are focusing on the classic lore of the game more than they have before this millennium. So my personal irritation that they are devoting a level 9 focus to storylines (which I neither expected nor desired) only a level 7 on classic lore (which I wanted) has nothing to do with their sincerity. The wishful misinterpretation there is all on me.

Same thing goes with minor changes in direction. Amazingly enough, people actually do mean things when they say them and then change their mind or goals later on.

Maybe I'm just gullible, but I've followed this edition from before it came out pretty closely, and I've never gotten the feel that the designers were anything less than fellow enthusiasts who were taking responsibility to carry our game into the future and do their best to represent as much of their D&D constituency as possible.

(And I don't trust politicians or corporations, so this is specific rather than general impressions.)
 

ad_hoc

(they/them)
What we then would be looking at is D&D book sales that are bringing in at least 15 to 20 million, and despite how well D&D is doing, and their books being at the top of the non-fiction lists...I'm not sure I see D&D doing that presently.

North American sales figures of RPGs:

2013: $15 million
2014: $25 million
2015: $35 million
2016: $45 million

RPG sales have gone up $30 million/year since the release of 5e.

https://icv2.com/articles/games/view/29326/hobby-games-market-hits-700m
https://icv2.com/articles/markets/view/32102/hobby-games-market-climbs-880-million
https://icv2.com/articles/news/view/35150/hobby-games-market-nearly-1-2-billion
https://icv2.com/articles/news/view/38012/hobby-games-market-over-1-4-billion
 

GreyLord

Legend
Like I said, I am not inclined to going to dig up links on information you've missed but which has already been discussed here plenty as it happened. The fact you mentioned "non-fiction" as opposed to "all books" alone tells me you are lacking in even basic awareness of how sales have ranked in this past year. You also keep mentioning Mearls and I don't know why. I suggest if you want to know more you get a camelcamelcamel account and look at the long term tracking, and then look at INDEPENDENT sources outside Mearls and Crawford (in addition to what they've said). But bottom line, I think you're behind in your data. If you want to go look information up, I encourage you do to so. But, I am not going to do your homework for you on this one...I just don't have the time, and I suspect anything I gave you would result in additional requests for even more data until you got to the point where you were asking for in-house trade secret numbers on exact quantity of sales for each book and each dollar gained for each sale and silliness on that level.

But for others reading what you're writing - I encourage you to research this yourself and I think you will find I am correct. This past year was literally the best year for D&D sales (overall) in the past 20 years. It well exceeded the launch year for the edition, which is unprecedented except for 1e AD&D.

I have stock reports and what you are saying is absolutely NOT in them, so where are you getting this stuff from? Obviously NOT from the official Hasbro sources from what I can tell, or at least your interpretation is different then what the reports seem to tell me.

I have seen MULTIPLE double ended statements put out that have been interpreted FAR beyond what they stated by many (including statements by Mearls about the core books). I haven't seen anything to indicate that it's doing better than it did in 2000 or 2001 from those stock reports, nor have I seen it excel 2008 (and specifically 2008, not the years after that), all of which ALSO had mentions (and more particularly in pre-2003 years) pertaining to D&D in some instances to a bigger and more in depth degree.

The bigger concerns this year stemming from the reports and outside sources actually had to do with Toys R' US and other items rather than having any major interests in D&D. There is more about Magic than D&D...and if anything I'd say Hasbro sees D&D as a BRAND investment...but the books are merely a blot. Magic as a seller is the bigger interest rather than the D&D sales. It more about the Brand of D&D than the books at this point in regards to what might make money.

This is why...if you have those reports from the past 9 months...please highlight these things or at least point them out so I can find them in the reports I have...because I'm not seeing them. I HIGHLY doubt Mearls said something that countered what is shown in the reports...but if he did...once again...please show me those statements. It could be interesting to see if they were indeed taken out of context (meaning he technically told the truth, but have been misinterpreted to say what you think they say insteasd) or he actually directly stated that the gross profits were the greatest ever.

Put it this way...a 30 man WotC sells a typical 30 million dollars. At 100K for each person (salary, paperwork, etc), plus another 3 million in overhead and another 4 in other expenses...plus the normal 10 million in production costs gives you 10 million profit. A 8 man WotC team that sells 15 million which has 120K for each person (salary, paperwork, insurance..etc), but only a 1 million overhead, and another 1 million in other expenses gives you a profit of 12 million. Not hard to have a better profit margin in that arena...or even better net profit.

I don't think this is what happened, but I will admit that is a possibility. I think when referring to a better profit overall, it is referring to the profit margins, which, with a small department like D&D has, comparatively to the larger departments of the past and the money they are making or should be aiming for (10-15 million) should be a no brainer in having a greater profit percentagewise to cost than it has EVER done previously. That's a different statement than saying the monetary profits (net or gross) are greater than all other editions, or even 3e or 4e. Once again, this boils down to the wording. I could be referring to the percentage profits (which should be a no brainer that a department that is smaller than 1/3 of WotC D&D previously making at least half the gross would be making the highest percentage wise profits ever) or monetary profits (less likely), but without the moniker to state which...you won't know. It's a double speak.

Still, I might be able to buy the net profits even, but not the gross. I'm interested in your sources...

Where did you GET this information that you stated?

5e has made more gross than 3e/3.5e. Not core books (that was a much earlier response from Mearls), just total gross (the more recent data). That's not a lie, it's true. We have a lot of evidence to support that contention, including a lot of independent evidence which is not from Mike Mearls or Jeremy Crawford. In support of your contention that it's false is...your speculation.

It does NOT seem to correlate with ANYTHING I've heard or seen in the stock reports or anything else for that matter. This is why I am asking. I do NOT see this in the numbers. If you have this information, PLEASE POST IT. Obviously, I might have a different tune on the matter. I haven't seen the evidence that you state there is a LOT of to even start to think this. However, I am interested in SEEING this information that you refer to.
 
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Hussar

Legend
/snip
Instead, they are happy to be relegated to the backroom where there is not as much Executive oversight and visits as there were previously.
/snip

Hang on. We've got numerous reports of D&D actually making it onto earning statements for Hasbro. Something that had never happened before.

I'm not sure how you get relagated to the back room when your product is doing better than it has ever done before. We're actually reaching fad era numbers now.
 

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