Alternatives to heavy armor for clerics?

5ekyu · Apr 4, 2018

"You do realize that these two statements are contradictory, right? "

Actually, i dont recall the bit about not playing the intended intrinsic to class identity. I did not say that for sure.

What i am saying is ot seems in a world where " nature" is a lot broader than flowers and willow trees... Where entire peoples living inside mountains and underground, the choice to remove heavy armor from that build seems to eliminate reasonable options that the setting currently provides.

I also see it as failing at a goal of increasing distinctiveness.

Its almost as significant as you deciding each sub class has a prime color their spells and effects manifest.

Now to your "my players are new so they dont know clerics in,heavy" my bet is they dont know druid dont wear metal either so... Why are **you** choosing to use that as your basis?

I mean, conside... What if tempest clerics **only** wear heavy? Metal helps with shocks?

What if life dont use shields to have hand free for medic stuff?

What if nature clerics wont/cant cast necromancy?

If you want different, choose differents that matter, not ones whoch are cosmetic beyond killing some concepts.

cbwjm · Apr 4, 2018

I always felt it was a little weird that the nature cleric gained heavy armour proficiency. It could probably be removed without actually needing to replace it with anything although you could say that they gain druidcraft and another druid cantrip of their choice. That might leave them a little loaded down with cantrips though.

Paul Farquhar · Apr 4, 2018

cbwjm said:
I always felt it was a little weird that the nature cleric gained heavy armour proficiency. It could probably be removed without actually needing to replace it with anything although you could say that they gain druidcraft and another druid cantrip of their choice. That might leave them a little loaded down with cantrips though.

As already pointed out, they don't really "gain" heavy armour proficiency. Clerics in earlier editions have always had heavy armour proficiency, even if they had Nature/Plant/Animal Domains/Spheres.

5e, in effect, removes heavy armour proficiency from some domains in exchange for increased spell damage.

cbwjm · Apr 4, 2018

Paul Farquhar said:
As already pointed out, they don't really "gain" heavy armour proficiency. Clerics in earlier editions have always had heavy armour proficiency, even if they had Nature/Plant/Animal Domains/Spheres.

5e, in effect, removes heavy armour proficiency from some domains in exchange for increased spell damage.

For regular clerics that's true. It changed once we got specialist priests in 2e which the 5e domains remind me of.

Paul Farquhar · Apr 4, 2018

Wyvern said:
First of all, if there's a rule I don't like in a game, I prefer to come up with a solution *before* it comes up in play rather than try to improvise a fix on the spot. Secondly, any players I'm likely to be GMing for in the foreseeable future are people who are new to D&D in any form, and therefore there's no reason for them to have preconceived notions that wearing heavy armor is something a cleric would do.

Now, if all you're going to do is criticize me for wanting to change the rules, instead of making constructive suggestions for how I could change them, kindly drop the subject.

The thing is "changing the rules" can lead to unintended consequences. In this case swapping a minor proficiency that is unlikely to be used for something that is more likely to be used might cause a player to select a nature domain cleric who would otherwise have chosen something different.

"If it aint broke, don't try to fix it" is a good maxim to use when dealing with such a complex system, and until the issue arises it aint broke.

In you must exchange it, rather than simply remove it or use "your religion frowns on wearing metal armour" fluff then the replacement must be something that is categorically less attractive, such as an extra language or tool proficiency.

akr71 · Apr 4, 2018

Fanaelialae said:
You could give them a blessing from their deity that grants them AC as if they were wearing heavy armor. It's a slight boost, since it can't be removed (such as if the PCs are stripped of their gear and imprisoned) and presumably wouldn't have a stealth penalty.

How about re-skinning mage armor - maybe call it armor of faith - call it a once/long rest ability.

Fanaelialae · Apr 4, 2018

akr71 said:
How about re-skinning mage armor - maybe call it armor of faith - call it a once/long rest ability.

That's an option. However, most clerics won't have the Dexterity to make use of it. They'll just end up wearing medium armor, leaving the ability unused.

The benefit of heavy armor is that you gain a good AC without needing to invest in Dexterity.

Edit: I think allowing Clerics to substitute Wisdom instead of Dexterity for AC purposes might work, although it would be a tempting dip for something like the druid. Which is, come to think of it, a serious flaw in my original proposal.

Bacon Bits · Apr 4, 2018

Fanaelialae said:
That's an option. However, most clerics won't have the Dexterity to make use of it. They'll just end up wearing medium armor, leaving the ability unused.

The benefit of heavy armor is that you gain a good AC without needing to invest in Dexterity.

Look, you've got to either have Dex to benefit from light/medium armor or Str to benefit from heavy armor. That's just the design of the game, and there aren't any classes that get around that limitation because AC isn't free. I don't know anybody who would seriously consider the -10 movement for low Str a reasonable trade off for heavy armor's +1 AC, and that's kind of the point. The Stealth disadvantage is part of the cost of higher AC, too.

An alternate like mage armor, Sorcerer Draconic Resilience, or Barbarian/Monk Unarmored Defense is fine, but if you're just looking for Clerics to get the benefits of heavy armor essentially without any of the cost, that's dumb.

Fanaelialae · Apr 4, 2018

Bacon Bits said:
Look, you've got to either have Dex to benefit from light/medium armor or Str to benefit from heavy armor. That's just the design of the game, and there aren't any classes that get around that limitation because AC isn't free. I don't know anybody who would seriously consider the -10 movement for low Str a reasonable trade off for heavy armor's +1 AC, and that's kind of the point. The Stealth disadvantage is part of the cost of higher AC, too.

An alternate like mage armor, Sorcerer Draconic Resilience, or Barbarian/Monk Unarmored Defense is fine, but if you're just looking for Clerics to get the benefits of heavy armor essentially without any of the cost, that's dumb.

I think you're overstating your case a bit. Characters that benefit from heavy armor are likely to have the requisite strength. In the case of a wizard, the movement penalty is negligible. Without spells like expeditious retreat or dimension door, you can't outrun most monsters. The slower attainment of high level spells is the real penalty, IMO, for level dipping to gain AC. There's even heavy armor (mithril I believe) that removes the strength requirement.

Secondly, I'm not looking for Clerics to get anything. The OP asked for suggestions. I offered suggestions. Pretty sure that's how this forum thing is supposed to work.

Lastly, if you don't want clerics wearing heavy armor but want them to have the drawbacks, don't be afraid to do just that. A magical blessing that carries heavy armor drawbacks. You can flavor it as the weight of your deity's expectations, or whatever.

Rossbert · Apr 4, 2018

I say keep it and don't give an alternative.

There are several proficiencies given that are rarely used that give options, even if rarely put in use (rogues are proficient in longswords, the unarmored defense barbarians have light and medium armor proficiencies). It gives the option of a lower Con barbarian still having good AC or a dumped Dex melee cleric not always getting hit.

As far as I can tell, excepting the Life, all the domains which have heavy armor also have Divine Strike indicating a conscious choice toward a melee build.

Life, I believe, gets it to add survivability in a front line battle medic role since the basic healing spells are often touch range, because while they all heal Life obviously is specialized in it.

The ones that don't have heavy armor as far as I saw are Grave, Light, Knowledge and Trickery and all of those appear to lack any domain abilities that really encourage you to go within melee range of the opponents being either dedicated blasters or some other form of focused (even non-combat) support.

Alternatives to heavy armor for clerics?

5ekyu

Hero

cbwjm

Seb-wejem

Paul Farquhar

Legend

cbwjm

Seb-wejem

Paul Farquhar

Legend

akr71

Hero

Fanaelialae

Legend

Bacon Bits

Hero

Fanaelialae

Legend

Rossbert

Explorer

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