Cultures in D&D/roleplaying: damned if you do, damned if you don't

Derren

Hero
All this talk about "do your research" etc. sounds good on paper but in practice means nothing. When people want to be offended they will find something and no amount of research will prevent that. Most of the time the offended people havent done much research themselves and will only accept a perfect fairy tale version of said culture and not its historic representation.

In the end there are only 3 choices. Either do what you want to build a good story and hope you fly under the radar, self censorship and not use cultures as template which get people triggered or present those cultures as being near perfect and better than they were in history.
 

log in or register to remove this ad

gamerprinter

Mapper/Publisher
All this talk about "do your research" etc. sounds good on paper but in practice means nothing. When people want to be offended they will find something and no amount of research will prevent that. Most of the time the offended people havent done much research themselves and will only accept a perfect fairy tale version of said culture and not its historic representation.


In the end there are only 3 choices. Either do what you want to build a good story and hope you fly under the radar, self censorship and not use cultures as template which get people triggered or present those cultures as being near perfect and better than they were in history.



Frankly, the Japanese horror setting I created - and detailed on the bottom end of page 3 of this thread, I developed borrowing much (but in limited scale) Japanese culture, history, religion and folklore - because it's a published setting, I have no intentions of "flying under the radar", nor intent of self censorship, and while I didn't overly spend time on some of the mysogynistic aspects (I only selected a limited set of Japan concepts), it's not a depiction of a better historical version. I state plainly that feudal Japan was very much a police state. So in the possibility, that I might trigger some people to offense - I don't really care at all. It seems to have been received well for the most part, though I imagine some do get triggerred (so what?)

In any creative endeavor that one publishes, the risk of offense always exists - why worry about hiding it? I don't, I want it to be seen and risk possible offense. I'm fine with that.
 
Last edited:

S

Sunseeker

Guest
All this talk about "do your research" etc. sounds good on paper but in practice means nothing.
That's quite the claim there.

When people want to be offended they will find something and no amount of research will prevent that.
Well who cares what the professionally offended think? It's been repeated half a dozen times that you'll never make everyone happy. This argument is the same kind of clap-trap that supports ideas like "Why make murder illegal, someone is still gonna kill folks!" It's not just silly, it's STUPID. Of course someone will never be happy no matter what you do. But that doesn't mean that the other 80% of people won't be happy.

Most of the time the offended people havent done much research themselves and will only accept a perfect fairy tale version of said culture and not its historic representation.
Oh yeah, I've heard this argument before. It usually leads to someone suggesting that their warped, uneducated idea of someone else's culture is the most accurate one.

In the end there are only 3 choices. Either do what you want to build a good story and hope you fly under the radar, self censorship and not use cultures as template which get people triggered or present those cultures as being near perfect and better than they were in history.
Blah blah blah, god why does this garbage have to come up every time someone asks about what the best approach to other cultures is?

Yes, literally nobody will be happy no matter how hard you try. Are you for real? Because this reads like trolling. Your options are "do whatever, hope they don't notice you", "don't use real stuff at all" or "make up perfect versions of history to make the crazies happy", gimme a fricken break, this is garbage. Lies and garbage.

And you know it.
 

Yaztromo

Explorer
That's an interesting quote but... that's really not what my OP is about.

Well, his experience is that he tried hard being realistic and adherent to history during his Napoleonic battles, but eventually he grew bored and choose to create a new world where you don't need to justify each single detail. This new world wasn't boring even after many decades playing in it.
 

pemerton

Legend
I'd say that a big step is questioning assumptions behind how you portray how you portray what is normal, what is human and what is civilized.
I think that this can be good advice even for those wanting to run a broaldy European fantasy game.

A lot of examples could be given - eg of the relationship of a broadly mediaeval European culture to technology transfers from other parts of the world - but one is about values. Classic D&D, for instance, places no weight at all upon honour or fidelity to externally-imposed obligations (familial, religious, etc). Even for clerics, the relationship with the divine tends to be presented in an essentially fee-for-service model.

I'd probably sum up the article you linked to as "avoid projection". Anachronism is another form of projection.
 

I think it’s probably impossible to avoid referencing real-world cultures; we only have our own history upon which to draw, or our fiction which ultimately, itself, draws from our history in some way. We seldom invent anything from whole cloth.

D&D’s roots lie in medieval simulationist wargaming. From its inception, and for a long time, its tone and inspiration was primarily Northern European – whether directly, or moderated by Howard, Anderson, Tolkien and the like. It was also intrinsically Orientalist in its approach for most of its history, freely caricaturing non-European cultures in Blackmoor, Greyhawk and the Forgotten Realms – this tendency crystallizing most obviously in settings like Maztica or Al-Qadim. I think these are relatively uncontroversial assertions. I also think it’s reasonable to view these efforts as clumsy and naïve from the vantage point of 2018.

I believe that the OP’s post contains two overlapping ideas, and I think it’s probably worth separating them:

1) Campaigns set in a real-world historical context, probably with fantastic elements
2) Campaigns which draw on real-world historical cultures for inspiration

The first has always been one with which I am cautious to engage – I’m something of a perfectionist, and there is just so much damned work associated with accurately portraying an historical culture, that it can appear overwhelming. I’ve successfully run one-shots (or two-shots, or three-shots) in a variety of historical periods: 8th-Century Wessex; 12th-Century Anjou; 11th-Century Norway – or whatever. But these time periods and cultures are well-known to me, and well within my comfort zone; recently I’ve been toying with early Iron Age Canaan, but even finding an historical consensus on this period is close to impossible. I’ve tended to use other systems (Ars Magica, Pendragon) to run “historical” campaigns with multiple sessions – both of these systems are obviously dripping with fantastic and ahistorical elements.

I would argue that the second idea – that of campaigns which draw on real-world cultures (historical or contemporary) in elucidating fictional cultures in the game milieu – is essentially unavoidable. It therefore becomes – for me, at least – a question of how well I can disguise elements which I have appropriated from real-world cultures so that the players don’t immediately recognize them as a transplant from Earth history. I don’t want to say “they’re like Toltecs” or “they’re like Minoans” to the players; I’d prefer to maintain the illusion of originality :/

As a relatively privileged white European male growing up in the 70s and 80s, who had absorbed a good deal of Tolkien before being introduced to RPGs, I think my perspective was probably fairly congruent with that of the early game designers – I’m part of an early demographic, so to speak. As a teenager, I possessed many of the biases and internal stereotypes that my British Whiteness bestowed upon me, and these informed my playstyle. I hope I’ve shaken off most of those elements of my understanding, although I’m also sure some little nuggets of bigotry and prejudice remain – transcending one’s own culture is a life’s work.
 

Before of Tolkien was Conan by Robert E. Howard, and his world had a lot of different kingdoms and cultures.

Videogames of martial arts are full of characters with national stereotypes.

* I remember there were some complains about "Gipsies" and "Kindred of the East" by White Wolf, but I don't know very much, what really happened?

* I don't like when they use a "too positive" stereotype to be politically correct. Khamala Kan, from Marvel Comis, alias "Miss Marvel" can be an angel like character, but I am angry because marvel comics never will use her to talk about Asia Bibi, a Pakistani woman from the real life. Other stereotypes I hate are the religious zealot and the anti-system rebel. When you find them, you can bet the work wants to be more annoying propaganda.

* Now we are in the age of internet, and now lot of fans from other continents can publish and shared their own worlds inspired in their own cultures.

* Is political correct to can use Indian pantheon for a fantasy worlds? Hinduism is a real religions with millions of followers. And what if I want to use a fantasy setting to report the system of the castes from Hinduism?
 

gamerprinter

Mapper/Publisher
The first has always been one with which I am cautious to engage – I’m something of a perfectionist, and there is just so much damned work associated with accurately portraying an historical culture, that it can appear overwhelming. I’ve successfully run one-shots (or two-shots, or three-shots) in a variety of historical periods: 8th-Century Wessex; 12th-Century Anjou; 11th-Century Norway – or whatever. But these time periods and cultures are well-known to me, and well within my comfort zone; recently I’ve been toying with early Iron Age Canaan, but even finding an historical consensus on this period is close to impossible. I’ve tended to use other systems (Ars Magica, Pendragon) to run “historical” campaigns with multiple sessions – both of these systems are obviously dripping with fantastic and ahistorical elements.

I agree with most of what you're saying. I too am a perfectionist, though I don't think you need to attempt accurately portray every aspect of a culture to effectively capture it for a setting. Some attempt to comprehensive and lose the nuance, which I'm not in favor of. I say, pick a limited set of parameters - religion, culture, history, folklore, pick a limited set within each larger subject then get deep with nuance and you can do a good job - that's what I do with my historical settings. I try to discover concepts that others leave aside.
 

Afrodyte

Explorer
Is political correct to can use Indian pantheon for a fantasy worlds? Hinduism is a real religions with millions of followers. And what if I want to use a fantasy setting to report the system of the castes from Hinduism?

I think this is the wrong question. There are no hard and fast rules that can settle the matter for everyone everywhere once and for all. Life and people, not to mention art and culture, are simply too complex.

A far more productive way of looking at it is: How can I go about incorporating this element in a way that's respectful of the real history and culture(s) that created it?
 

gamerprinter

Mapper/Publisher
* Is political correct to can use Indian pantheon for a fantasy worlds? Hinduism is a real religions with millions of followers. And what if I want to use a fantasy setting to report the system of the castes from Hinduism?

I fully adopted the Japanese social caste system into my published fantasy setting, and mashed it with Buddhism (which has millions of followers), but then a regional Buddhist leader in the central US, looked at my adaption and thought it was genius, and in no way a disservice to Buddhism. I don't want to insult another culture, but political correctness - something I care nothing to further in use as an ideology...
 

Remove ads

AD6_gamerati_skyscraper

Remove ads

Recent & Upcoming Releases

Top