Wizard Spellcasting vs. Clerical Spellcasting...which is better?

Hi all!

I am curious why people generally perceive Sorceror/Wizard spellcasting to be superior to Clerical spellcasting (or indeed do they?).

One obvious element is of course the greater variety of spells available, but is that really such a telling factor?

Clerics have universal access to their list and spontaneous healing conversion.

Also can you honestly say that Wizard spells are 'better'? In previous editions certainly, but now...?

The follow-up question is of course if Cleric Spellcasting is more or less equal to Sorceror/Wizard spellcasting was it a mistake for WotC to give the Cleric class such a notable advantage in other areas (Hit Dice; BAB; saves; proficiencies etc.)?

I think, or believe, or feel that clerics are average throughout their spell casting progression, while a wizard is weak starting and progresses in power after 10th level well above clerics. Sorcerers are powerful before 10th level but become much weaker after. Though there are killer combinations with each spell casting class at almost any level (barring wizard/cleric low levels) in general this is how I feel it pans out.

I love the wizard class because of how powerful it becomes (well as long as your Dm allows you to find scrolls and spell books of dead wizards). If you don't then a wizard becomes obsolete or just as versatile as a sorcerer.

Keep in mind that Wizards and Sorcerers can potentially learn any spell, but Clerics are disallowed spells of their opposite alignment. So when that CG Cleric with Align Weapon is fighting that Death Slaad, he won't be able to make anyone's weapon 'lawful' in order to bypass its DR.

Hiya!

I think Wizard spellcasting is better, because it can just achieve more. Stuff like Polymorph, Teleport and so on... Clerics do have very potent spells definitely, but the Wizard spells are just more useful, so to say.

Also at higher levels, Wizards have the better spells with no save/spell resistance.

OTOH, Clerics get a lot of spells to choose from and with the domains also get access to some Wizard spells.

Upper_Krust said:

The follow-up question is of course if Cleric Spellcasting is more or less equal to Sorceror/Wizard spellcasting was it a mistake for WotC to give the Cleric class such a notable advantage in other areas (Hit Dice; BAB; saves; proficiencies etc.)?

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I believe the Cleric is deliberately made so strong, since in previous editions the Cleric was often reduced to a healing machine and they wanted to make it more interesting and fun to play. Maybe they have gone a bit far!

The spontaneous casting ability was a great idea!

Bye
Thanee

in my opinion, it balances out

wizards are the "better" spellcasters, more spells to choose from, meta-magic feats for higher class levels in wizards, greater amount of spells per day for the sorcerer. also, since there are more spells available to wizards/sorcerers, a larger selection for magic items.

this is balanced by the cleric who can wear armor, fight better, better saves, more hp, etc. the cleric spell choice is smaller than a wizards (not in terms of what spells they can choose to cast, but the actually amount of spells available), but then i guess they can research a new spell.

Obviously, 'better' spellcasting needs to be contextualised- comparing sorceror/wizard spells to clerical spells is in a way comparing apples to oranges: give me a horde of mooks and I'm better off with fireballs; healing a dying comrade as a wizard is tricky to say the least (you'd probably have to resort to Limited Wish).

Generally, however, sorceror/wizards do have a better spell selection. In terms of offensive capacity, there can be no contest- arcane blast spells are better than divine blast spells almost without exception (the notable exception is the druidic Flame Strike, but we're not talking about druids now, are we ?) Utility-wise, wizards tend to rule the roost. Whilst clerics peculiarly get sending a level lower than wizards (one of the most underrated spells in the game), teleportations, polymorphs and illusions are indispensable at mid to high level play...even ignoring those lesser used but still vital divinations such as tongues, comprehend languages and clairvoyance. Wizards also tend to get better 'strategic' spells: Wall of Force is an incredible spell, and Antimagic Shell is phenomenally useful as well (though admittedly certain domains will get this at the same level). Arcane defensive spells also tend to be superior- Shield + Mage Armour gives a very respectable 1st level AC, right up to the unsurmountable Prismatic Sphere (which can only be defeated by...another arcane caster). In terms of buff spells, it's probably a draw, but that's about the only class where a parity can be established.

All in all, then, arcane spells tend to be 'better' than clerical spells, though one cannot factor in the utility of the clerical healing spells. Then again, the arcane casters should be better at magic: they suffer lower hit points, worse saves, no domain powers, worse BAB and fewer proficiencies for their troubles!

Hi Dreaddisease!

Dreaddisease said:

I think, or believe, or feel that clerics are average throughout their spell casting progression, while a wizard is weak starting and progresses in power after 10th level well above clerics. Sorcerers are powerful before 10th level but become much weaker after. Though there are killer combinations with each spell casting class at almost any level (barring wizard/cleric low levels) in general this is how I feel it pans out.

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So you think its fairly even. Thanks.

Dreaddisease said:

I love the wizard class because of how powerful it becomes (well as long as your Dm allows you to find scrolls and spell books of dead wizards). If you don't then a wizard becomes obsolete or just as versatile as a sorcerer.

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I have been looking over some of the upper spectrum Sorceror/Wizard problem spells and I think spells like Mordenkainens Disjunction; Shapechange and Time Stop are probably overpowered if not openly broken. This can tend to give arcane spellcasters an edge.

But I am not convinced that there is much between the overall power of the various spells.

Hi Pants mate!

Pants said:

Keep in mind that Wizards and Sorcerers can potentially learn any spell, but Clerics are disallowed spells of their opposite alignment. So when that CG Cleric with Align Weapon is fighting that Death Slaad, he won't be able to make anyone's weapon 'lawful' in order to bypass its DR.

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Surely thats a very minor point, though I guess every little counts.

Thanee said:

Hiya!

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Hey Thanee mate!

Thanee said:

I think Wizard spellcasting is better, because it can just achieve more. Stuff like Polymorph, Teleport and so on... Clerics do have very potent spells definitely, but the Wizard spells are just more useful, so to say.

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But is this versatility simply due to a greater number of typically available spells (approx. 369 vs. 220) or are arcane spells inherantly just 'better'?

Thanee said:

Also at higher levels, Wizards have the better spells with no save/spell resistance.

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They do have the lions share of the 'flashy' spells.

Thanee said:

OTOH, Clerics get a lot of spells to choose from and with the domains also get access to some Wizard spells.

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I'll make a list of the pros and cons in my next post.

Thanee said:

I believe the Cleric is deliberately made so strong, since in previous editions the Cleric was often reduced to a healing machine and they wanted to make it more interesting and fun to play. Maybe they have gone a bit far!

Click to expand...

Thanee said:

The spontaneous casting ability was a great idea!

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True.

Hey dreaded_beast!

dreaded_beast said:

in my opinion, it balances out

wizards are the "better" spellcasters, more spells to choose from, meta-magic feats for higher class levels in wizards, greater amount of spells per day for the sorcerer. also, since there are more spells available to wizards/sorcerers, a larger selection for magic items.

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Clerics also get Metamagic.

Clerics actually gain more spells per day than Wizards and almost as many as Sorcerors.

dreaded_beast said:

this is balanced by the cleric who can wear armor, fight better, better saves, more hp, etc. the cleric spell choice is smaller than a wizards (not in terms of what spells they can choose to cast, but the actually amount of spells available), but then i guess they can research a new spell.

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Clerics have approx. 60% the number of spells typically available to Arcane spellcasters.

However, they do have total access to their full list (a few alignment based variant spells notwithstanding).