Wizard Spellcasting vs. Clerical Spellcasting...which is better?

The fact is that the cleric is the best possible class. The class is given extra powers to compensate for the fact that they have to spend so much time healing.

It is obvious that the mechanic for casting divine spells is superior; that's why the arcane spells have to be better. I suppose a case could be made that the sorceror's spontaneous casting abilities are not inferior to those of a cleric but absolutely no way such a case could be made for wizards' casting.
 
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Interesting question you pose, Upper_Krust.

The way I see it is this: That Clerics, viewed at in a vacuum, by themselves, are the most powerful class available to a player. The choice of Domains is such that you can gain access to the most powerful of Wizard spells. Even while wearing armour. But the cleric does not exist in a vacuum, he needs to fulfil his role in a party, for the party to function well.

The truth is however, that in play, the cleric rarely has the opportunity to shine. His forte is the buff, and the defensive. This leads to an important conclusion. The ability to survive. Unlike the monk, who also has a high survivability, the cleric can actually contribute to the survival of others. This is not seen by players as a decisive factor in the blow-by-blow intensity that is DnD combat, however it is crucial to the long term survival of the group (which is why everyone wants a cleric on the team, and noone wants to play them)

Secondly, while the ability to spontaneously cast cure spells is good, it does not quite eradicate the need for memorised cures. Spontaneously casting cures requires a full round action, and therefore precludes movement to the injured.

In a party environment, they are well balanced with the rest of the team. There are two clerics in a party of 7 IMC, and I don't see them dominating play, inspite of the apparent advantages of the class.

AS to arcane spellcasting: the spells do more damage on a level-by-level comparision. There are more area spells. They cover a larger area. There are a wider array of damaging effects. There are a greater number and variety of no-save/no-SR arcane spells. They have spells that provide greater mobility, than that available to the divine spellcaster.

So I think it can be safely said that arcane spellcasting is mightier than the divine version, and while the divine spellcaster may still seem to come out on top in a comparision (armoured spell casting, d8, Domain spells, Spontaneous casting, ...) it is actually quite hard to see this bias in actual play.

The arcane spellcaster is more likely to be remembered for swaying a battle with a single spell, whereas the divine caster's cure critical wounds on the fighter was merely temporarily fixing a speed bump on the fighter's path to glory and the BBEG. Saved using a potion.
 

Upper_Krust said:
Hi all! :)
Also can you honestly say that Wizard spells are 'better'? In previous editions certainly, but now...?

IMO Cleric casting is better. At higher levels Clerics gain the advatage because of their protective spells. which are better than Wizards. This advantage is coumpounded by the fact that save-or-die spells and situations are common in high-level D&D. Cleric has far more protection against such threats.

The follow-up question is of course if Cleric Spellcasting is more or less equal to Sorceror/Wizard spellcasting was it a mistake for WotC to give the Cleric class such a notable advantage in other areas (Hit Dice; BAB; saves; proficiencies etc.)?

Yes, they did make a mistake. Not in comparison to Wizards and Sorcerers, but in comparison to all the other classes. As it is now, clerics make better fighters than fighters themselves. Something is wrong in that.
 

Aye, clerics are definately the stronger of the two, overall, but not by much. Though somewhat better in combat and less restricted in spellcasting (mechanically speaking), clerics lack the familiar, bonus feats, and larger spell list of wizards, while they likewise lack the familiar, superior spell list, and superior spellcasting of sorcerers. The ability to turn or rebuke undead is also much more specialized and restricted than the benefits of sorcerers/wizards. Still, in this way, clerics are just a little bit more powerful.

Arcane magic and divine magic, I believe, are quite even - divine magic is restricted mostly in roleplaying ways, not by armor or lots of expensive spell research, but has slightly more limited uses, and the few divine combat spells are usually inferior, while divine spellcasters can never have such options of powerful specialization as do arcane casters. Druids, for instance, are intensely focused on nature spells, but most of their spells that even vaguely resemble those of mages are obviously inferior, either in assigned spell level or in simply raw power or utility (i.e. hold animal is much more restricted than hold person, produce flame is less potent than flaming sphere, wall of thorns is inferior to wall of iron, etc.), and they lack the spontaneous healing or inflicting of clerics. Divine casters only benefit from the less restricted and more defensive nature of their spells, but even then, they have roleplaying limitations to balance things out.

When it comes to spellcasting, the cleric and wizard/sorcerer are quite different in focus and capability. The cleric spell list is focused almost exclusively on healing, divination, "buffing", and support spells. They also have just a rare few generic combat spells, plus a few alignment-specific spells, a few spells for fighting or consorting with outsiders and undead, and a few generic utility spells (Make Whole, Helping Hand, Air Walk, Word Of Recall, etc.). Clerics are overall quite superior in defense, and in divination, support, and utility. Clerics are always useful on any given day, not just when adventuring, battling, or whatever. However, clerics do have some shortcomings as well. They have little stealth capacity whatsoever, few mind-affecting spells to manipulate others with, few attack spells that aren't melee-only, few and limited travel spells, hardly any deceptive spells, hardly any form-altering spells, inferior magic dispelling and counterspelling capacity/usefulness, slightly more-restricted creature summoning/calling capacity, and attack spells that are very limited in variety, usefulness, or spell-level-dispersal (i.e. mostly just fire-based, bludgeoning, piercing, slashing, or negative/positive energy)

Anyone can benefit from a cleric's spells, from the farmer to the blacksmith to the nobleman to the king to the guardsman to the adventurer to the beggar. A cleric can call upon his or her deity's guidance, heal friends, repair almost anything, locate and get rid of pesky poltergeists, exercise a demon, cure any ill whether physical or mental or spiritual, thwart invisible thieves, clear away a trap-filled problem spot, solve a crime investigation through speaking with the dead or a deity or interrogating with truth magic, curse infidels and criminals, convert rivals to allies through diplomacy and religion and healing and magic, raise the dead, prevent or mitigate natural disasters or plagues or famines, create a tasty banquet, support starving folk, purify and cleanse a site, put the undead to rest or command them as thralls, thwart a maniacal wizard, calm a barbarian warband, bring down rains for the crops, destroy enemies, and even perform remarkable miracles.

Wizards and sorcerers on the other hand, have obviously superior versatility and raw power, but less utilitarian or support spells. Their spell list is larger and more varied, with many spells of each school (though Necromancy, Enchantment, and Abjuration kinda get the shaft with mages). An arcane spellcaster has a great many capabilities no divine caster could duplicate short of high-level Miracles, and arcane spells often have greater raw power and combat usefullness. However, mages have fewer and generally less useful defensive spells, with a few exceptions, and also universally possess inferior physical capabilty, with lower hit points, armor use, and melee capacity, further reducing their defense. Mages also have no access to the Death Ward spell or its ilk, and death spells are often Fortitude-based, as are most of the powerful offensive magics and hazards (i.e. poison and disease), along with Reflex, both of which are a mage's weakness. Arcane casters have practically no healing/restoring capacity, aside from the few healing spells Bards slowly gain access to, and a few construct- or familiar- restoring spells for arcane casters in optional supplement rulebooks. Mages have to rely more heavily on others in order to survive, and often it's the divine caster they most rely upon.

Overall, I say divine and arcane spellcasters are fairly equal, though divine casters have a slight general superiority over most arcane casters, and which is simply more readily apparent than the more subtle strength of a mage.
 

Arkhandus said:
When it comes to spellcasting, the cleric and wizard/sorcerer are quite different in focus and capability. The cleric spell list is focused almost exclusively on healing, divination, "buffing", and support spells. They also have just a rare few generic combat spells, plus a few alignment-specific spells, a few spells for fighting or consorting with outsiders and undead, and a few generic utility spells (Make Whole, Helping Hand, Air Walk, Word Of Recall, etc.). Clerics are overall quite superior in defense, and in divination, support, and utility. Clerics are always useful on any given day, not just when adventuring, battling, or whatever. However, clerics do have some shortcomings as well. They have little stealth capacity whatsoever, few mind-affecting spells to manipulate others with, few attack spells that aren't melee-only, few and limited travel spells, hardly any deceptive spells, hardly any form-altering spells, inferior magic dispelling and counterspelling capacity/usefulness, slightly more-restricted creature summoning/calling capacity, and attack spells that are very limited in variety, usefulness, or spell-level-dispersal (i.e. mostly just fire-based, bludgeoning, piercing, slashing, or negative/positive energy)

Yep, clerics have more restricted spell selections. They have few attack spells, but this not as big a factor as it might seem at first. This is because the few attack spells are better than wizards.

Flame Strike is an excellent offensive spell, because of the 1/2 divine damage clause. Destruction is better than Finger of Death. Implosion (hmm .. was that cleric only spell, I thought it was) is good in that it's not a [Death] spell. Fire Storm is also a good one, since it allows for good targeting with numerous 10 ft cubes. You're correct, there aren't many offensive spells for cleric, but those few that are, are good.

If we get to high levels (17+) Miracle is about the best spell. It can emulate all those nice wizard spells to a certain level. Spell Turning for clerics, or perhaps Holy Sword from paladins list?

Domains also help the cleric, but not that much. Domains with Time Stop are nothing to sneer at ;)
 

green slime said:
Secondly, while the ability to spontaneously cast cure spells is good, it does not quite eradicate the need for memorised cures. Spontaneously casting cures requires a full round action, and therefore precludes movement to the injured.
SRD said:
Spontaneous Casting:
SRD said:
A good cleric (or a neutral cleric of a good deity) can channel stored spell energy into healing spells that the cleric did not prepare ahead of time. The cleric can “lose” any prepared spell that is not a domain spell in order to cast any cure spell of the same spell level or lower (a cure spell is any spell with “cure” in its name).
SRD said:
An evil cleric (or a neutral cleric of an evil deity), can’t convert prepared spells to cure spells but can convert them to inflict spells (an inflict spell is one with “inflict” in its name).

A cleric who is neither good nor evil and whose deity is neither good nor evil can convert spells to either cure spells or inflict spells (player’s choice). Once the player makes this choice, it cannot be reversed. This choice also determines whether the cleric turns or commands undead (see below).

....

Spontaneous Casting of Cure and Inflict Spells: A good cleric (or a cleric of a good deity) can spontaneously cast a cure spell in place of a prepared spell of the same level or higher, but not in place of a domain spell. An evil cleric (or a cleric of an evil deity) can spontaneously cast an inflict spell in place of a prepared spell (one that is not a domain spell) of the same level or higher. Each neutral cleric of a neutral deity either spontaneously casts cure spells like a good cleric or inflict spells like an evil one, depending on which option the player chooses when creating the character. The divine energy of the spell that the cure or inflict spell substitutes for is converted into the cure or inflict spell as if that spell had been prepared all along.



AFAIK, the only time that spontaneous casting requires a full-round action is when you apply a metamagic feat to the spontaneous spell. There is no mention in 3.0 or 3.5 otherwise that I am aware of.
 
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Upper_Krust said:
Howdy, mate. Up to our old tricks again, are we? :D

Upper_Krust said:
I am curious why people generally perceive Sorceror/Wizard spellcasting to be superior to Clerical spellcasting (or indeed do they?).

One obvious element is of course the greater variety of spells available, but is that really such a telling factor?
Simply put, it's not that simple. Variety IS a factor, but only one of many. Clerics spells are generally 'softer', for one thing. They rarely involve directly engaging an enemy or enjoying the combat spotlight, such as it is. Against any foe except the undead (and sometimes outsiders), the cleric is relegated to more of a support role. They are Enablers, as opposed to Enacters. In other words, the cleric acts as the back-office of a party, providing infrastructure support to the team. He buffs, he protects, he heals...what he rarely does is engage the enemy. The wizard or sorceror is more direclty involved, metaphorically, throwing damage spells and powerful enchantments into the fray. This dichotomy increases as the levels do, and the cleric can easily feel marginalized due to it.

Upper_Krust said:
Clerics have universal access to their list and spontaneous healing conversion.
And as I've mentioned, that's a powerful ability that is terribly unsexy...and can often be taken for granted. Every heal given is another chance at direct involvement sacrificed.

Fighter: "Help, the Ogre nearly killed me!"
Cleric: "Righto. I didn't really want to cast Blade Barrier or Lesser Planar Ally today, anyhow. Sigh."

The cleric quite puissant...in his own way. However, this generally lacks flavor in the context of the immediate battle, and is one reason that WotC spiced them up...because in the context of actual play, they don't come off as powerful as they look on paper.

Upper_Krust said:
Also can you honestly say that Wizard spells are 'better'? In previous editions certainly, but now...?
Define "better". They can be campaign specific, but spells like Bless, Death Ward, Prayer, Recitation, Healing Circle, Protection from Evil and a host of others, while VERY utilitarian, are NOT very exciting or personally empowering. Compare, say Rope Trick versus Zone of Truth. One is a very utilitarian spell with many applications, while the other is a very utilitarian spell with limited but important applications. Which one is better? In the right circumstances, "Gentle Repose" and "Delay Poison" are useful spells...but it's not nearly as varied in effects or uses as Prestidigitation or Unseen Servant. Again, we return to Enabler versus Enacter. The cleric supports, the wiz/sor interacts.

Upper_Krust said:
The follow-up question is of course if Cleric Spellcasting is more or less equal to Sorceror/Wizard spellcasting was it a mistake for WotC to give the Cleric class such a notable advantage in other areas (Hit Dice; BAB; saves; proficiencies etc.)?
Well, if my answers above didn't make it clear, I'll summarize, here. WotC did the right thing. Without the gimmes of Domain Powers and spells, better BAB and other factors, the cleric would be far more unattractive and no less necessary. In garden-variety D&D, msot folks want to be able to directly involve themselves in the meat-and-potatoes of a battle, trap or other conflict. Clerics are the least prepared or enabled to do so. While a bard can Charm and a wizard can trick with illusions, the cleric cannot.

His single best ability is to defend himself and others...and that's a very passive ability in a game that emphasizes 'face time' and active interaction. It should also be pointed out that, while not as potentially stringent as a Paladin, a cleric does have potential restrictions on him that a wizard does not have. By it's very definition, the cleric cannot simply change his alignment radically or disassociate himself from his church without potentially losing his abilities...other classes don't share this restriction, except for the Paladin, who shares the restriction in a stronger sense.
 

Clerics are overall quite superior in defense, and in divination, support, and utility

I'd definitely like to refute this point.

Defense

Whilst the cleric has a few notable defense spells, such as Death Ward, wizards tend to have better (personal) defenses. At the low levels, Shield and Mage Armour typically give a better AC than the cleric (and Shield of Faith's feeble duration at low levels is no compensation). Protection from Arrows is a nice low level defense, particularly in conjunction with Levitate or Fly. Displacement and Improved Invisibility effectively halve physical damage against most opponents; Blink halves all forms of damage with a few exceptions. The Globes of Invulnerability provide 100% defense against low level spells, Stoneskin provides a nice soak against weapons, Fire Shield is a great deterrent against melee attacks, and Wall of Force grants immunity to pretty much everything. Antimagic Shell is extremely useful, and Prismatic Wall/Sphere are, without question, the best defensive spells in the game. Contingency means that a high-level mage need never be taken completed by surprise...if nothing else, Contingency: Teleport will safeguard his life.

By contrast, the Aura spells typically overlap with Rings of Protection and Cloaks of Resistance; the Spell Immunities grant such narrow protection as to be of use only against pre-researched sorcerors and most other 'defense' spells are duplicated on the arcane list.

Divination

Hardly. Whilst Commune is superficially better than Contact Other Plane, its restriction to yes-or-no answers pales in comparison with the one-word answers of COP. Other than that, there is no contest. Indeed, what few useful divinations the cleric has (Scrying, Discern Location, True Seeing) are duplicated on the arcane caster. The myriad of useful (particularly low level) divinations that the arcanist possesses- Clairvoyance, Comprehend Languages and Detect Thoughts, to name but three, have no equal on the clerical list.

Support

Fair point.

Utility

Certainly not! Illusions, which are usually 'utility' spells are clearly the domain of the arcanist. In terms of 'security', the cleric has no answer to the mage's strategic defenses from Rope Trick to Mordenkainen's Mansion. With regard to pure utility, the mage clearly has the best mobilisation spells, from Levitate (circumventing walls) to Greater Teleport (circumventing most defenses and providing a good backup!) The Polymorph range of spells, up to PAO and Shapechange (which I'll include here for convenience) are among the most useful spells out there.

I'm happy to concede that the cleric can match or possibly outstrip the wizard in support/buffing; and he is patently superior at healing (though LW can emulate Heal by mimicking its 5th level adept incarnation)- but in nearly every other field of magic, the arcanist is the superior.
 

I find the 3e cleric both unattractive *and* over-powerful. They're an unattractive class to play and it almost doesn't matter how much power is loaded on them, the integral assumptions of the class - do what your god tells you, spend your time healing everyone else - do not make an attractive package. & why must these two always be linked? A non-religious healer (a healer class, a wizard or psionic with healing powers, an alchemist churning out cure potions) or a non-healing priest seem perfectly reasonable possibilities.
 

S'mon said:
I find the 3e cleric both unattractive *and* over-powerful. They're an unattractive class to play and it almost doesn't matter how much power is loaded on them, the integral assumptions of the class - do what your god tells you, spend your time healing everyone else - do not make an attractive package. & why must these two always be linked? A non-religious healer (a healer class, a wizard or psionic with healing powers, an alchemist churning out cure potions) or a non-healing priest seem perfectly reasonable possibilities.
I would point to both the recent issue of the Dragon with the alternate cleric classes and OA for examples of both. Not to mention the Book of the Righteous and a dozen other 3rd-party publications.
 

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