Wizard Spellcasting vs. Clerical Spellcasting...which is better?

[Upper_Krust]

Hi jasamcarl mate!

Hmmm...i really wouldn't try to so quickly quantify the different effectivness of wizard and cleric casting simply because it is very much dependent on party make-up, especially for the cleric, because of the nature of buff spells.

Yes a cleric has decent BAB, hp, AC from armor etc, but those benefits rarely see use if the cleric is being played efficiently or are there simply to keep him alive as a buffer/healer.

I don't think you can underestimate the use of better hit points; better BAB; better AC (?) and better saving throws.

However, for this discussion I want to concentrate upon spellcasting prowess alone.

Eh...don't believe the hype, the cleric is not really overpowered...

Well I think there is a difference between overpowered and more powerful...the cleric class is certainly 'more powerful' than the others, whether its 'overpowered' is debatable.

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hey Spatula!

The big exception is Persistant Spell, mainly because of a few powerful personal-range buffs on the cleric spell list. But Persistant Spell is a feat that needs to be removed from the game or heavily reworked.

Yeah Persistent Spell pretty much makes anything Permanent, as such its a bit undervalued.

The same is also true of Spell Focus. Many Spell Focus choices just don't affect enough spells to make the feat a decent choice for a cleric.There are a number of effects that are only available to arcane casters, barring cleric domains. Even with domains you can never get access to more than a few 'wizard-only' effects, and the cleric's usage of those spells is limited (since they can only be prepared in domain slots). It's not a matter of there being more arcane spells, or arcane spells being 'better' (although the damage-dealers certainly are, as you've noted), but that the spell lists are cover different realms. Clerics can heal; wizards can't. Wizards can cast teleport, fly, haste, polymorph, illusions, charm, domination, etc.; clerics, for the most part, can't.

Perhaps if we divide things into spell schools we can see where Cleric spells are weak. We can count Healing Magic as a tenth spell school since its distinct enough from other Conjuration magic.

So lets run through them:

Incidently these are just my initial impressions (I only just thought of this spell school idea). I'll do a more detailed analysis later.

Abjuration: Both Strong.
Conjuration: Both Strong.
Divination: Both Strong.
Enchantment: Cleric Average; Wizard Strong.
Evocation: Cleric Average; Wizard Strong.
Healing: Cleric Strong; Wizard Non-existent.
Illusion: Cleric non-existent; Wizard Strong.
Necromancy: Cleric Strong; Wizard Average.
Transmutation: Cleric Average; Wizard Strong.
Universal: Both Average (?)

If we assume each School represents 10% and rating Strong is +10%; rating Average is +5% and rating non-existent is 0%.

Cleric = 70%
Wizard = 80%

Of course this is just my first impression so its probably a bit out.

Any thoughts on this?

It will be interesteing to see how it pans out with a detailed analysis.

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hi dreaded_beast!

from a technical stand point, i love all the abilities of a cleric and i think it is a very powerful class, but not unbalanced, just one of the better ones

however, in my opinion, the greatest balancing factor in playing is the whole basis of a cleric following a religion.

that what prevents me from playing a cleric, since i would rather not be "hindered" by having a character so strongly based on religion. i'm sure how a cleric should be played will differ from group to group, but from my own opinion of how a cleric should be played, i would not want to play one right off the bat.

I always felt that the Cleric required a bit more gusto and (no pun intended) devotion to 'roleplay' effectively.

I mean right off the bat you (generally speaking anyway) have an entire organisation to work with...if handled correctly.

I think the mystique of the Cleric Class is one reason why Clerical based supplements (eg. The Book of the Righteous) do really well.

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hey S'mon!

Here's 2 revised versions of the Cleric, balanced up vs the other classes so they sit intermediate between the wizard & sorcerer (weak, powerful spells) on one end, and the Paladin & Ranger (strong, poor spells) on the other.

1. The Battle-Cleric - retains Cleric's combat powers, with reduced spellcasting. Less powerful in combat than a Paladin, with a better spell list.

2. The Priest-Cleric - reduced combat power than the battle-cleric, with full Cleric spellcasting and increased skill points/level.

Isn't the Battle Cleric really what the Paladin is meant to represent (Though I think maybe Templar would be a better name and cover all alignments)?

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hi fusangite!

The fact is that the cleric is the best possible class.

Agreed.

The class is given extra powers to compensate for the fact that they have to spend so much time healing.

It is obvious that the mechanic for casting divine spells is superior; that's why the arcane spells have to be better.

Indeed, though by how much I think is the question.

I suppose a case could be made that the sorceror's spontaneous casting abilities are not inferior to those of a cleric but absolutely no way such a case could be made for wizards' casting.

I think for the purposes of this discussion we must approach things from the perspective that Wizard and Sorceror spellcasting evens out over 20 levels, or would anyone contend that and if so why?

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hi green slime mate!

Interesting question you pose, Upper_Krust.

I do have my moments.

The way I see it is this: That Clerics, viewed at in a vacuum, by themselves, are the most powerful class available to a player. The choice of Domains is such that you can gain access to the most powerful of Wizard spells. Even while wearing armour. But the cleric does not exist in a vacuum, he needs to fulfil his role in a party, for the party to function well.

The truth is however, that in play, the cleric rarely has the opportunity to shine. His forte is the buff, and the defensive. This leads to an important conclusion. The ability to survive. Unlike the monk, who also has a high survivability, the cleric can actually contribute to the survival of others. This is not seen by players as a decisive factor in the blow-by-blow intensity that is DnD combat, however it is crucial to the long term survival of the group (which is why everyone wants a cleric on the team, and noone wants to play them)

Secondly, while the ability to spontaneously cast cure spells is good, it does not quite eradicate the need for memorised cures. Spontaneously casting cures requires a full round action, and therefore precludes movement to the injured.

In a party environment, they are well balanced with the rest of the team. There are two clerics in a party of 7 IMC, and I don't see them dominating play, inspite of the apparent advantages of the class.

AS to arcane spellcasting: the spells do more damage on a level-by-level comparision. There are more area spells. They cover a larger area. There are a wider array of damaging effects. There are a greater number and variety of no-save/no-SR arcane spells. They have spells that provide greater mobility, than that available to the divine spellcaster.

So I think it can be safely said that arcane spellcasting is mightier than the divine version, and while the divine spellcaster may still seem to come out on top in a comparision (armoured spell casting, d8, Domain spells, Spontaneous casting, ...) it is actually quite hard to see this bias in actual play.

The arcane spellcaster is more likely to be remembered for swaying a battle with a single spell, whereas the divine caster's cure critical wounds on the fighter was merely temporarily fixing a speed bump on the fighter's path to glory and the BBEG. Saved using a potion.

Some interesting points there. Incidently would I be right in guessing that your party has more than one Sorceror/Wizard in the party?

I am also curious how you would outline the two types of spellcasting contrasted by spell school (the idea I previously postulated)?

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hey Numion!

IMO Cleric casting is better. At higher levels Clerics gain the advatage because of their protective spells. which are better than Wizards. This advantage is coumpounded by the fact that save-or-die spells and situations are common in high-level D&D. Cleric has far more protection against such threats.

Well so far I think there have been people espousing the Wizard spellcasting as better, a few calling it even, and a few of the opinion (such as yourself) the Cleric spellcasting is overall superior.

I think we can approximately predict that Wizard spells are 20% more powerful overall. It will be interesting how the second part of the equation (spell school variety) pans out.

Yes, they did make a mistake. Not in comparison to Wizards and Sorcerers, but in comparison to all the other classes. As it is now, clerics make better fighters than fighters themselves. Something is wrong in that.

Would you advocate splitting the class* (as S'mon advocates) or simply just weakening it?

*Personally I would weaker the Clerics martial abilities and increase the Paladins spellcasting abilities (and make the Paladin d8 HD too) to make it better fill that Templar role.

 

[Upper_Krust]

Howdy, mate.

Hiya Wizardru mate!

Up to our old tricks again, are we?

Am I that transparent.

Simply put, it's not that simple. Variety IS a factor, but only one of many. Clerics spells are generally 'softer', for one thing. They rarely involve directly engaging an enemy or enjoying the combat spotlight, such as it is. Against any foe except the undead (and sometimes outsiders), the cleric is relegated to more of a support role. They are Enablers, as opposed to Enacters. In other words, the cleric acts as the back-office of a party, providing infrastructure support to the team. He buffs, he protects, he heals...what he rarely does is engage the enemy. The wizard or sorceror is more direclty involved, metaphorically, throwing damage spells and powerful enchantments into the fray. This dichotomy increases as the levels do, and the cleric can easily feel marginalized due to it.

Presumably the enabling/enacting difference is governed through their choice of spells.

And as I've mentioned, that's a powerful ability that is terribly unsexy...and can often be taken for granted. Every heal given is another chance at direct involvement sacrificed.

Fighter: "Help, the Ogre nearly killed me!"
Cleric: "Righto. I didn't really want to cast Blade Barrier or Lesser Planar Ally today, anyhow. Sigh."

Evil Cleric:"Leave him, we can always animate the body anyway!"

The cleric quite puissant...in his own way. However, this generally lacks flavor in the context of the immediate battle, and is one reason that WotC spiced them up...because in the context of actual play, they don't come off as powerful as they look on paper.

But is this deficit merely perceived or tangible I wonder?

Define "better".

Sexier...to use your vernacular.

Is Elminster sexier than Fzoul Chembryl?

They can be campaign specific, but spells like Bless, Death Ward, Prayer, Recitation, Healing Circle, Protection from Evil and a host of others, while VERY utilitarian, are NOT very exciting or personally empowering. Compare, say Rope Trick versus Zone of Truth. One is a very utilitarian spell with many applications, while the other is a very utilitarian spell with limited but important applications. Which one is better? In the right circumstances, "Gentle Repose" and "Delay Poison" are useful spells...but it's not nearly as varied in effects or uses as Prestidigitation or Unseen Servant. Again, we return to Enabler versus Enacter. The cleric supports, the wiz/sor interacts.

So we have to analyze which spells are enablers and which are enacters. In fact we could perhaps do this by spell school could we not?

Abjuration: Enabler
Conjuration: Both
Divination: Enabler
Enchantment: Enacter
Evocation: Enacter
Healing: Enabler
Illusion: Enacter
Necromancy: Enacter
Transmutation: Both
Universal: Both

What do you think?

Well, if my answers above didn't make it clear, I'll summarize, here. WotC did the right thing. Without the gimmes of Domain Powers and spells, better BAB and other factors, the cleric would be far more unattractive and no less necessary. In garden-variety D&D, msot folks want to be able to directly involve themselves in the meat-and-potatoes of a battle, trap or other conflict. Clerics are the least prepared or enabled to do so. While a bard can Charm and a wizard can trick with illusions, the cleric cannot.

His single best ability is to defend himself and others...and that's a very passive ability in a game that emphasizes 'face time' and active interaction. It should also be pointed out that, while not as potentially stringent as a Paladin, a cleric does have potential restrictions on him that a wizard does not have. By it's very definition, the cleric cannot simply change his alignment radically or disassociate himself from his church without potentially losing his abilities...other classes don't share this restriction, except for the Paladin, who shares the restriction in a stronger sense.

So the Cleric is akin to the faithful wife whereas the Wizard is more like the sexy mistress...?

 

[S'mon]

Hey S'mon!

Isn't the Battle Cleric really what the Paladin is meant to represent (Though I think maybe Templar would be a better name and cover all alignments)?

No, EGG says the Paladin is the "embodiment of the perfect Christian Knight" - a Percival type, with incidental divine spell powers. My Battle Cleric is for generic war-priests who could be of Thor, Hextor et al.

 

[S'mon]

Would you advocate splitting the class* (as S'mon advocates) or simply just weakening it?

*Personally I would weaker the Clerics martial abilities and increase the Paladins spellcasting abilities (and make the Paladin d8 HD too) to make it better fill that Templar role.

I like the Paladin as-is; he's a warrior with incidental supernatural powers, not a war-priest. If anything I'd like to see the Paladin's spell powers eliminated and him given more combat & protection abilities to compensate.