Wizard Spellcasting vs. Clerical Spellcasting...which is better?

[Numion]

And again, i have to dispel the 'cleric is a better fighter than a fighter myth'. Most of the buffs some have mentioned as making this possible are of short duration, especially as of the revision. This means that they will tend to be activated in combat. Now, while a fighter is dishing out the damage for the two or three rounds the cleric is buffing himself, the cleric is essentially useless to the party. So the only fair way of comparing their damage is to take the damage both deal from the round the cleric starts buff straight through to the end of combat; i think the fighter will come out well in such comparison, not to mention the fact that he can do this over multiple combats while the cleric can do it once or twice, max.

You're a bit off in your numbers. In our experience (which is plenty), we've seen that at levels +9 the cleric needs to spend 1 round of combat boosting himself on the average, and can fight 3-5 fights / day at much higher capability than the fighter. Buffing that one round doesn't even necessarily 'cost' the cleric anything - a divine power at surprise round will net back that one lost attack the next round on some levels.

My numbers are higher because sometimes (maybe 50%) you know combat is about to begin beforehand - by being listening / dividing / planning whatever, and can cast spells before combat. If cleric is played with kick-in-the-door style it certainly isn't as effective, and I assume that some spells are cast quickened (divine favor mainly).

Then you must remember that a fighter spends much more of his time unable to dish out anything - due to hold, some will-based attack, mind control, death (), while a cleric is highly resistant to magical attacks (Freedom of Move, Delay Poison, Protection from Elements (x3-x5), Death Ward, Spell Immunity, Circle of Prot. Evil (negates mind control)).

I've experienced it myself. At peak performance cleric is more powerful than a fighter because of short buffs (1 round casting w/ quickened, you don't even need divine power always), and more powerful on the long run because of much higher resistance to hinderances.

Or haven't you really noticed the fact that at levels 9+ the fighters and rogues are much more often out of the combat due to failed saves than clerics? Clerics need a boat-load of spells active for the resistance, thats true, but thats not a problem since most are 10 min or 1 h / level spells, and can be cast before the situation arises (most of the time).

 

[jasamcarl]

You're a bit off in your numbers. In our experience (which is plenty), we've seen that at levels +9 the cleric needs to spend 1 round of combat boosting himself on the average, and can fight 3-5 fights / day at much higher capability than the fighter. Buffing that one round doesn't even necessarily 'cost' the cleric anything - a divine power at surprise round will net back that one lost attack the next round on some levels.

My numbers are higher because sometimes (maybe 50%) you know combat is about to begin beforehand - by being listening / dividing / planning whatever, and can cast spells before combat. If cleric is played with kick-in-the-door style it certainly isn't as effective, and I assume that some spells are cast quickened (divine favor mainly).

Then you must remember that a fighter spends much more of his time unable to dish out anything - due to hold, some will-based attack, mind control, death (), while a cleric is highly resistant to magical attacks (Freedom of Move, Delay Poison, Protection from Elements (x3-x5), Death Ward, Spell Immunity, Circle of Prot. Evil (negates mind control)).

I've experienced it myself. At peak performance cleric is more powerful than a fighter because of short buffs (1 round casting w/ quickened, you don't even need divine power always), and more powerful on the long run because of much higher resistance to hinderances.

Or haven't you really noticed the fact that at levels 9+ the fighters and rogues are much more often out of the combat due to failed saves than clerics? Clerics need a boat-load of spells active for the resistance, thats true, but thats not a problem since most are 10 min or 1 h / level spells, and can be cast before the situation arises (most of the time).

Hmmmm..ooc, assuming 9th level, what is a cleric buffing himself with? I might be willing to concede if i agree, but i think you are underestimating the value of a single round in mid-highlevel play. And, yes, assuming you can see your enemies coming and they are in within semi-close range, the cleric can spare that round, but then, you are assuming no awareness on the enemy, or that the dm throughs a random encounter, etc....And might I add, that, assuming the cleric is playing at all well, he should be casting a lot of the protection spells on the fighter, not to mention any number of other buffs....I'm really curious where, at mid-levels, where you have the strongest case because of a relative lack of importance of rounds, you are getting the spells to do this.

As to the fighter's will save weakness, ever heard of dispel magic? Anti-magic zones?

 

[Xavim]

Theres two ways of looking at this. Low level play, and high level play. And because I don't play Sorcerers (I hate the lack of versitility) I'm comparing Clerics and Wizards.

Low Level: 1st - 4th (i'm going to be mainly focusing on 1st)
Everyone knows which characters need to be babied at first level and more often then not are nearly killed instantly by a stray arrow or what not. The arcane. There isn't a party of adventurers out there that can't tell you a story or two about how they had to protect the wizard from some sword wielding calamity. When was the last time you heard people worrying about their cleric? With the clerics ability to cast all of thier spells in armour, he/she gains that huge survivability factor everyone's raving about, while the wizard, needs to spend all of his first level allotment of spells on defence just to save his hide. Mage armour + Shield uses up most wizard's spell power completely unless their ability scores are out of control. The only way an arcane spellcaster can stand their own is through liberal use of their scribe scroll ability. Without, they're just a little kid waiting to grow up.

The cleric's offence stands up pretty well at these levels aswell. With a decent amount of hp, BAB, saves and such they can hold their own pretty well. Heavy armour and a really big shield make them nearly indistinguishable from the early fighter. Even the Druid wins over the Arcane spellcaster in this regard.

Conclusion: Divine spellcaster stronger.

High Level: 20th
I'm considering things at 20th because, lets face it, if you want to determine which spellcasters are the 'best' you need to consider it at its 'best'. (I'm not getting into epic levels simply because it would just be a continuation of what I'm about to say anyway)

You show me something (at CR20) that can stand up to a 20th level wizard. There isn't anything. In high levels there is no equal for the Wizard. At this stage of the game the character can do anything, and cast anything.

Wish and other such spells allows the character to cast as many heal spells as he chooses aswell as giving the character access to any spell of 6th level or lower on ANY spell list. With the wizards ability to craft magical items, he can quickly become a better healer than the cleric himself. A couple Rods/staves of healing in a bag of holding ought to keep those fighters standing for a while. While this is contrasted by the Clerical Miracle, Miracle is restricted in that its success/failure depends on the attitudes of a third party and cannot be used for any purpose contrary to the goals of your diety.

Spell research allows the Wizard to easily and effectively bypass any difficulty. Fighters need healing? Create a spell that gives him regeneration. A party laced with Contingency : Teleport spells would be impossible to kill without increadable anti-magic countermeasures. The Wizard character by this time has had ample opportunity to purchase any combat feats they may require. I'm a big fan of Still spell, and Heavy armour. Whenever I play Sorcerers (which is rare) they all do this trick. For a slight reduction in spell power, I now as armoured as any fighter and still can apply all of my spells to maximum effect.

The sheer power of spells such as meteor swarm, Wail of the Banshee, and the invincible Prismatic Sphere clearly show the wizard as being the dominant character class. Wizards also can create golems, monsters, and simulectrums to bolster the party. Its entirely possible that the enemy cleric would have to face multiple copies of the Wizard all at once. The cleric doesn't have anything that can come close.

All of the most powerful spells are in the wizards possession. The wizard possesses enough HP that he can take some hits that somehow manage to penatrate his defences. And if he doesn't have the hp, he can Magic Jar his pet Storm Giant to make use of its hp instead. Try getting a better 'buffing' benefit than that.

 

[Numion]

Hmmmm..ooc, assuming 9th level, what is a cleric buffing himself with? I might be willing to concede if i agree, but i think you are underestimating the value of a single round in mid-highlevel play. And, yes, assuming you can see your enemies coming and they are in within semi-close range, the cleric can spare that round, but then, you are assuming no awareness on the enemy, or that the dm throughs a random encounter, etc....

But the wasted round is the surprise round, if that. That means one attack, if the cleric doesn't just cast Quickened Divine Favor and attack. Divine power is the only buffing spell I wasted time with in our campaign during combat. The cleric can also decide to open with a flame strike or something else the fighter couldn't do anyway.

And might I add, that, assuming the cleric is playing at all well, he should be casting a lot of the protection spells on the fighter, not to mention any number of other buffs....I'm really curious where, at mid-levels, where you have the strongest case because of a relative lack of importance of rounds, you are getting the spells to do this.

Casting spells on the fighter? That's not wise, my friend. A cleric focused on combat should buff only himself. Of course the cleric won't be better than the fighter if he's not trying, and casts spells on others. My argument was that a cleric can function better in a fighters role than a fighter can. (Because of all the spells he casts on himself).

If you dilute that archetype with the general role cleric, it's just not going to work. Other players might not like it, but IMO thats a viable concept. Or should other players be angry at the fighters player because he didn't to choose to play a cleric, and can't thus buff them? Because that's the choice here: either I play a cleric that buffs mostly himself, or if you don't like it, a fighter. No buffs for you in either case

As to the fighter's will save weakness, ever heard of dispel magic? Anti-magic zones?

Anti-magic zones? Well, that's a solution. It also solves the original "which is better, cleric or wizard casting" question

Dispel Magic isn't a solution. I've noticed it to be a bit ineffective. If you mean that a cleric should be ready to dispel any harmful effects on the fighter .. uh, thats similar to the wounded soldier situation: kill a soldier and there's one less opponent; wound one, and you've tied up others to help him. Not very effective.

In similar way, I usually don't heal others with my cleric during combat. Healing 4d8+12 per round isn't very effective when my arrows could deal 100 points per round.

 

[WizarDru]

But the wasted round is the surprise round, if that. That means one attack, if the cleric doesn't just cast Quickened Divine Favor and attack. Divine power is the only buffing spell I wasted time with in our campaign during combat. The cleric can also decide to open with a flame strike or something else the fighter couldn't do anyway.

When you consider that Flame Strike and Slay Living are the only truly offensive 5th level clerical spells, that's something of a no-brainer. A quickened Divine Favor is a 5th level spell. How many of those are you truly going to have memorized? Break Enchantment often becomes a must at the levels being discussed. Plane Shift, True Seeing, Raise Dead and Scrying are all important stand-bys.

Casting spells on the fighter? That's not wise, my friend. A cleric focused on combat should buff only himself. Of course the cleric won't be better than the fighter if he's not trying, and casts spells on others. My argument was that a cleric can function better in a fighters role than a fighter can. (Because of all the spells he casts on himself).

So essentially, you're advocating taking one of the two most group oriented classes and having him act as a loner? I can see that working, but it seems to work at cross-purposes. Essentially, you're burning a good deal of your spell power to become...a fighter who loses his powers with a targeted dispel or beholder ray. The sacrifice, of course, is that you have that many fewer spells to help the group when they need it, such as the aforementioned Break Enchantment, Plane Shift, Removal spells, Death Ward, Restorations, Dimensional Anchor, Dismissal and so forth. Can the cleric be better than the fighter? In some situations, yes, but only at the cost of actually being a useful member of a group. And being a bit of a jerk, potentially.

Dispel Magic isn't a solution. I've noticed it to be a bit ineffective.
In similar way, I usually don't heal others with my cleric during combat. Healing 4d8+12 per round isn't very effective when my arrows could deal 100 points per round.

IME, Dispel Magic is pretty powerful, particularly it's Greater variety. That illustrates how differences in levels and campaign styles can change things. The fighter isn't just dealing damage, he's taking it, too. If you're a cleric and you've spent all your feats to be an effective melee or ranged combatant, then you're still not as good in different situations as a pure fighter, who'll be dealing 150+ points of damage with his arrows at the same time as you do, possibly while you're still buffing. It sounds like you play in a game where you don't have many combats in succession very often, if at all. That skews the numbers more than a little. If you only reasonably have two or three combats a day, and you're prepared for them, you'll easily outmode the melee characters, as you've got more tricks, and are able to use them without fear of being caught with your pants down, spell-wise.

This ultimately highlights what I've been trying to point out to UK for some time. I think UK's efforts are admirable, but will ultimately prove of little utility, without some inclusion of proximate factors to balance his numbers. The cleric's utility varies based on campaign-style much more than the fighter, for example. If you regularly have 8-10 combats before resting, then you can rightfully expect the spellcasters to be much more conservative and harder pressed, than if you only have one or two combats. If your party has no cleric (or has a cleric like Numion, who is carrying a big stick), and you enter a dungeon such as "Heart of Nightfang Spire" which is rife with undead...then the whole difficulty factor of encounters is dramatically changed. A Bodak's potential threat, for example, widely varies, depending on the cleric's presence and his spell selection. I seriously think that UK should look for a sub-system to plug into his other systems to factor in such conditions.

Failure to do so can skew any results he produces. The cleric is supposedly the most powerful class, and yet is widely seen as unpopular. As I mentioned before, the cleric puts you in one of two positions: the team supporter or the One-Man-Army-Corps. The team supporter is an unexciting role to play and the OMAC is a poor team player. Further, unless the cleric exists in a vacuum, he's one of the few classes that comes with baggage: he's a de-facto member of an organization that he has to answer to and certain rules that govern his behavior that could cost him his abilities that is generally more restrictive than 'don't stop being lawful/chaotic'. If the DM doesn't enforce such aspects, that's a factor, as well.

 

[S'mon]

Re number combats/day; the 3e rules assume 4 combats/day and the classes are balanced around that. However that's reasonably only plausible for dungeon crawls; in wilderness travel or a city adventure the PCs are unlikely to face more than 1 fight in a 24-hour period, unless the DM is trying really hard to adhere to the 4-fights standard. The more realistic out-of-dungeon assumption of "1 fight then rest" seems to favour the spellcasters a lot, although surprise attacks can reduce the advantage.

 

[WizarDru]

Re number combats/day; the 3e rules assume 4 combats/day and the classes are balanced around that. However that's reasonably only plausible for dungeon crawls; in wilderness travel or a city adventure the PCs are unlikely to face more than 1 fight in a 24-hour period, unless the DM is trying really hard to adhere to the 4-fights standard. The more realistic out-of-dungeon assumption of "1 fight then rest" seems to favour the spellcasters a lot, although surprise attacks can reduce the advantage.

That makes sense, but in a dungeon environment, you've got more than just combat encounters to consider as a drain on party resources. Traps and environmental hazards, for example, can drain hp and spells in various situations.

In the case of one-a-day battles, the EL is almost always intended to be higher, for the very reason that the PCs will be better prepared/stocked. Look at "Speaker in Dreams" for examples, where the average encounters are fairly tough, and it specifically mentions why. I would tend to lower the x.p. generated from such encounters, otherwise, as it clearly favors the prepared spellcaster, unless the environmental conditions don't favor them (high winds causing problems with flying and verbal components, for example). With a higher level encounter, it would balance out, though is potentially more lethal for the players on a per-combat basis.

 

[Numion]

When you consider that Flame Strike and Slay Living are the only truly offensive 5th level clerical spells, that's something of a no-brainer. A quickened Divine Favor is a 5th level spell. How many of those are you truly going to have memorized? Break Enchantment often becomes a must at the levels being discussed. Plane Shift, True Seeing, Raise Dead and Scrying are all important stand-bys.

Of course at 9th level three at most. Important spells, those you listed. I'm not a nihilist enough to memorize Raise Dead every day, though. That would mean I expected someone of our group to die every day.

I sometimes memorize those spells. Mainly I like to play a religious fighter type. I chose cleric as a platform, to meet my own ends. I don't 'owe' the group any spells, anymore than the player who decided to play a straight fighter.

So essentially, you're advocating taking one of the two most group oriented classes and having him act as a loner? I can see that working, but it seems to work at cross-purposes. Essentially, you're burning a good deal of your spell power to become...a fighter who loses his powers with a targeted dispel or beholder ray. The sacrifice, of course, is that you have that many fewer spells to help the group when they need it, such as the aforementioned Break Enchantment, Plane Shift, Removal spells, Death Ward, Restorations, Dimensional Anchor, Dismissal and so forth. Can the cleric be better than the fighter? In some situations, yes, but only at the cost of actually being a useful member of a group. And being a bit of a jerk, potentially.

With the massive amount of spells active I can take 1-2 dispels one the average without massive drop in damage dealing, assuming caster level similar to mine. If caster level > my level, greater dispel will be much more effective, but at that point I'm happy to suck up the dispels personally, instead of the high-level caster doing something actually harmful or deadly to our group. Remember, it isn't only the spells that count.

Beholder ray - huh. I'll gladly take a cleric against a beholder than the fighter. When the Beholder closes it's cone and uses its rays, I'll have my protections against them - thankyouverymuch.

IME, Dispel Magic is pretty powerful, particularly it's Greater variety. That illustrates how differences in levels and campaign styles can change things. The fighter isn't just dealing damage, he's taking it, too. If you're a cleric and you've spent all your feats to be an effective melee or ranged combatant, then you're still not as good in different situations as a pure fighter, who'll be dealing 150+ points of damage with his arrows at the same time as you do, possibly while you're still buffing. It sounds like you play in a game where you don't have many combats in succession very often, if at all. That skews the numbers more than a little. If you only reasonably have two or three combats a day, and you're prepared for them, you'll easily outmode the melee characters, as you've got more tricks, and are able to use them without fear of being caught with your pants down, spell-wise.

We had about 3-7 combats a day. Remember though that 5 fights of CR of party level should send any party packing. Of course I couldn't be at peak performance in all combats damagedealing-wise, but my protections ensured a steadier performance in the long run, and even better peak performance at times due to short term buffs.

About our playing style: we play published scenarios, which are pretty standard for D&D. On the average 5 encounters will send a group to resting, remember, because each will take about 20% of your resources. So if you expect more combats per day, your numbers are skewed, not mine. You also wrote that I said I could prepare for every combat, but I actually said that 50% is more accurate. Thats not too far-fetched - not every monster is just lurking in ambush, but some do whatever the hell monsters do when they're not lurking.

Failure to do so can skew any results he produces. The cleric is supposedly the most powerful class, and yet is widely seen as unpopular. As I mentioned before, the cleric puts you in one of two positions: the team supporter or the One-Man-Army-Corps. The team supporter is an unexciting role to play and the OMAC is a poor team player. Further, unless the cleric exists in a vacuum, he's one of the few classes that comes with baggage: he's a de-facto member of an organization that he has to answer to and certain rules that govern his behavior that could cost him his abilities that is generally more restrictive than 'don't stop being lawful/chaotic'. If the DM doesn't enforce such aspects, that's a factor, as well.

Can't clerics just worship an aspect of deity anymore?

 

[Al]

Whilst we're getting increasingly off topic (i.e. cleric/wizard), I'd just like to chip in a bit re: the autobuffed super-cleric.

Pro: It works at the high levels (15+)
Con: It saps most of their high level spell ability.

A fully autobuffed cleric can lay waste to a fighter and is one of the most effective melee combatants around. At top level, using Persistent Spell, he can give himself potentially +6 to attack and damage rolls (Divine Favour) subsuming the fighter's BAB advantage, Weapon Focus and Greater Weapon Specialisation with +2 damage left over. Shield of Faith is a nice AC boost (though normally merely frees the +5 Ring of Protection for a spare ring slot). Magic Vestment matches +5 Full Plate whilst GMW matches a +5 weapon, which can be further augmented with Align Weapon. Spikes (from DotF) cranks up damage quite a bit. Divine Power matches the fighter's hit dice advantage, wipes out GWF and gives a +4 effective attack increase (assuming Divine Favour) in addition to +6 Strength. Divine Agility (DotF) buffs up the weak Reflex save, Death Ward offsets a potential problem, Negative Plane Protection guards against undead and necromancers and Mind Blank wards the Will save. Spell Immunity guards against a few spells and Spell Resistance adds another layer of protection. Finally, Righteous Might puts you well over the top in terms of hit points (Con boost), attack and damage (Str boost).

Now the drawback is thus: you've burnt 2 5th level slots, a 6th level slot, three 7th level slots, five 8th level slots and two 9th level slots...and all of your buffs can be taken out with a simple Greater Dispel Magic (one 6th level slot). In a pure hackfest with no magic-using opponents, the autobuffed melee cleric is more than viable- against strategic magic-using opponents, he is less effective to the party than a spellcasting cleric.

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hey Al!

Whilst we're getting increasingly off topic (i.e. cleric/wizard), I'd just like to chip in a bit re: the autobuffed super-cleric.

Pro: It works at the high levels (15+)
Con: It saps most of their high level spell ability.

A fully autobuffed cleric can lay waste to a fighter and is one of the most effective melee combatants around. At top level, using Persistent Spell, he can give himself potentially +6 to attack and damage rolls (Divine Favour) subsuming the fighter's BAB advantage, Weapon Focus and Greater Weapon Specialisation with +2 damage left over. Shield of Faith is a nice AC boost (though normally merely frees the +5 Ring of Protection for a spare ring slot). Magic Vestment matches +5 Full Plate whilst GMW matches a +5 weapon, which can be further augmented with Align Weapon. Spikes (from DotF) cranks up damage quite a bit. Divine Power matches the fighter's hit dice advantage, wipes out GWF and gives a +4 effective attack increase (assuming Divine Favour) in addition to +6 Strength. Divine Agility (DotF) buffs up the weak Reflex save, Death Ward offsets a potential problem, Negative Plane Protection guards against undead and necromancers and Mind Blank wards the Will save. Spell Immunity guards against a few spells and Spell Resistance adds another layer of protection. Finally, Righteous Might puts you well over the top in terms of hit points (Con boost), attack and damage (Str boost).

You forgot the Divine Might; Divine Shield and Divine Vigor feats from Defenders of the Faith.

Now the drawback is thus: you've burnt 2 5th level slots, a 6th level slot, three 7th level slots, five 8th level slots and two 9th level slots...and all of your buffs can be taken out with a simple Greater Dispel Magic (one 6th level slot).

Get one of those absorbing Ioun stones.

In a pure hackfest with no magic-using opponents, the autobuffed melee cleric is more than viable- against strategic magic-using opponents, he is less effective to the party than a spellcasting cleric.

It does seem a bit funny having even Cleric + Spells better at fighting than the Fighter itself. I mean Tensers Transformation is still balanced in that regards because it temporarily trades spellcasting ability for fighting ability. But with the Cleric its just all one way traffic.