Arguments and assumptions against multi classing

Arial Black

Adventurer
Although the question was not aimed at me, I hope you won't mind if I provide my take on it.

I consider the fluff of the class to be up to the player (within the constraints set by the DM's opinion of what fits in the setting) based on implication from the text in the PHB (and what it doesn't say), my experience with the D&D product across multiple editions, and a comparison with other game systems. I fully acknowledge that my interpretation is not the only one: the examples below are intended to explain the source of my interpretation, not to try to prove that my interpretation is the best one.

From the PHB:

Page 11: "You also invent the personality, appearance, and backstory of your character." If the personality, appearance, and backstory described in the class fluff was meant to be a stricture, rather than a suggestion, I would expect this quote to instead say "you invent the personality, appearance, and backstory of your character within the boundaries set by your choices in the steps listed below". The lack of such limiting language along with the placement of such an expansive directive to "invent" in the very first paragraph of character creation suggest to me that the context of character creation is one of player-driven invention.

Page 11: "Or you might be more interested in an unconventional character, such as a brawny rogue who likes hand-to-hand combat...". There is no mention of brawny rogues anywhere in the rogue class fluff. Instead, the fluff explicitly says that "rogues prioritize cunning over brute strength" (PHB 94). We know that brawny rogues are explicitly allowed by the text on page 11. Since the rogue fluff text does not make allowances for brawny rogues, I conclude that it is reasonable to infer that the class fluff text is more likely to be a series of examples and possibilities rather than strictures.

Page 11: "Class broadly describes a character's vocation, what special talents he or she is most likely to employ when exploring a dungeon, fighting monsters, or engaging in a tense negotiation". This passage says nothing about class determining personality, appearance, or backstory, even though most of the classes include fluff text that describe those things. Because they are uniquely emphasized in the introduction to choosing a class, I infer that that the "special talents" in the class description are more fundamental to each class than the fluff.

Page 45: "Class shapes the way you think about the world and interact with it and your relationship with other people and power in the multiverse. A fighter, for example, might view the world in pragmatic terms of strategy and manuevering, and see herself as just a pawn in a much larger game." (Emphasis added.) The key word here is "might", which strongly implies that there are other possibilities. Also, there is no directive to see each class's entry for specifics (and the specific example given isn't found in the fighter class description). So while class is broadly relevant to how you interact with the world, the soecifics appear to have been left up to the player.

Page 46: The first paragraphs of the Barbarian class fluff describe three example barbarians, only two of which are tribal. The rest of the fluff goes on to present a very tribal-centric description, which, if the fluff is mandatory, creates a contradiction with the non-tribal dwarf character that is explicitly allowed. This suggests to me that the fluff isn't intended to be mandatory.

Page 51: The first paragraphs of the bard description describe three possibilities: "scholar, skald, or scoundrel". Yet the "Learning from Experience" section describes bards only as entertainers, going so far as to describe that they "liv[e] on the gratitute of audiences". If you interpret the fluff as rules text, would also have to be entertainers (and live on gratuities), even though that is in tension with the idea of scholar or skald bards. It seems more reasonable to me to treat the fluff text as suggestions, in which case the contradiction vanishes.

Page 82: "Whatever their origin and their mission, paladins are united by their oaths to stand against the forces of evil." I see no way that quote can be rules text, because it contradicts other rules (the subclass choices) that permit paladins that haven't sworn oaths against evil. A clear example like this of fluff text that can't plausibly be a rule I believe supports the inference that fluff text isn't a set of rules in the first place.

Page 94: (See discussion for page 11 and pages 163-164.)

Pages 105-106, 108-109: This one is independently controversial, but I would note the tension between some of the text (arguably) assuming warlocks are obligated to their patrons and the possibility of Great Old One patrons to be unaware of their own warlocks. This suggests that the fluff text is not intended to be a stricture--if it we're, presumably more emphasis would have been put on avoiding apparent contradictions.

Pages 163-164: The multiclassing optional rules dramatically expand the number of character permutations, and include explicit rules on how to merge the mechanics of each class. There is no mention whatsoever about how to merge the fluff, even though the fluff is even more of a contradiction in many cases. For example, if class fluff was a binding stricture, a multiclass barbarian/rogue would be required to prioritize cunning over brute strength (PHB 94) which interferes with taking advantage of the barbarian's strength-based class abilities. Because the multiclass rules go into detail on class mechanics, but ignore class fluff, I think it is reasonable to infer that the class fluff must not require rules to reconcile, which it would if the fluff was itself a rule.

Broadly speaking, the language of the class fluff suggests to me possibilities rather than strictures. Where multiple options are explicitly provided (e.g. scholar, skald, scoundrel for bard on PHB 51) I read the language as inclusive rather than exclusive. By contrast, the mechanics sections use more definitive language

Comparison to Recent Editions:

Particularly since recent previous editions were quite explicit about the distinction between rules and fluff, had the designers intended the fluff text to be equivalent to rules text, I would have expected them to be quite blatant about saying so. It is true that 5e lacks the explicitness of recent editions in saying that fluff and rules are distinct. But I think it is more plausible that this lack implies a desire to make it easier for DMs to decide to enforce fluff as sacrosanct at their tables, rather than an unspoken 180 degree reversal from the idea that fluff is mutable.

Comparison to Other Systems:

If the designers had intended fluff to be sacrosanct, they could have been much more explicit about limiting player choices to those presented in the fluff text. Other games do this. For example, for Urban Shadows, after choosing an archetype, you pick your character's personality from a list of three class-specific, one-word adjectives. By contrast, see the broad language in the 5e PHB above about player invention suggests much more freedom.

Based on all of the above, I infer that class fluff is not intended by the designers to be rules text, and instead merely as possibilities and suggestions. DMs are, of course free to change that at their table, and the designers made it easier to do so in this edition.

Thank you for posting this! This is exactly what I've been saying the whole time!
 

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Arial Black

Adventurer
Wonder if a player would take me up on this...

"I want the old one's patton that doesnt know i exist."

"Ok so when it comes to the patrons' bargains and services, you will become of its "needs" just like it does. When it gets hungry, you do. When it gets sleepy, you do. When it gets angry, you do. Basically you have tapped into it like say a flea and are subject to its "needs" that you will then either act on or not, just like any other warlock with similar outcomes. Wonder what turns on that entity/entities?"

No, that would be unutterably wrong!

What this DM is trying to do is control what the PC does using their perfectly valid choice of class to take the player's agency away. This is the worst role-playing thing a DM can do.

The player decides what their PC does. Not the DM, and not the DM hiding behind the excuse of 'the patron made me do it'!
 

Xetheral

Three-Headed Sirrush
No, that would be unutterably wrong!

As an aside, "unutterably" is my new favorite word. I can't think of a single usage that isn't (in a superficial sense) hilariously self-contradictory. It's like "unspeakably" on steriods. Thank you for introducing me to this gem.
 

Arial Black

Adventurer
Because if I am using a world with active deities, they might the jealous kind who do not like being cheated on by the people they grant powers. Worlds with more active deities tend to also be worlds with more conflicts between the deities, so trying to get powers from two different sources could be more dangerous than just becoming an ex-cleric or whatever. If it is a world with distant deities, then it is more likely I would allow a good character concept that used more than one divine source for powers. And in a world with very distant, or missing deities, then the powers available would be limited in level.

Which goes back to the original point of this thread (at last! :D).

Some DMs forbid some multiclass combinations (read: paladin/warlock) for what they claim are 'fluff reasons'.

The reason that this approach is absurd is because they are pre-banning PCs before they even know what this particular PC's fluff actually is!

They are assuming that the as-yet unknown fluff will include two gods/patrons/powers that will not allow their 'servant' to serve two masters! Sure, that would be a valid reason to ban a PC....IF that was the situation!

But it might not be that situation! The 'green knight' Pal/War (ancients paladin/fey patron) is just one example from the PHB which doesn't need a 'you MUST be a powergamer' explanation, and there is no reason to automatically assume that god/patron could not work together, or even that god and patron cannot be one and the same being.

My first Pal/War PC's fluff was that The Fiend was pretending to be Odin, in order to corrupt the young paladin. So, Pal 2 to start, then MC to fiendish warlock 3, becoming a chainlock to an imp which ALWAYS kept it's raven form in front of my PC, pretending to be Odin's raven Huginn! But, although my PC believes that his abilities (both from the paladin class AND the warlock class, although 'class' is a purely metagame construct and has no place in the in-game reality of my PC who is just a person with a list of special abilities granted by 'Odin') come from Odin, ALL his special abilities in fact come from The Fiend.

With that fluff, "the paladin/warlock multiclass is banned because the god would not allow their servant to serve two masters" simply does not apply.

Pre-banning something for 'fluff reasons' makes no sense because you don't know what the fluff is yet. The player creates the fluff for their own PC, not the DM.
 

Arial Black

Adventurer
As an aside, "unutterably" is my new favorite word. I can't think of a single usage that isn't (in a superficial sense) hilariously self-contradictory. It's like "unspeakably" on steriods. Thank you for introducing me to this gem.

Not self-contradictory. What 'unutterably' means in this context is:-

"I can tell you that it's wrong, but the words do not exist that could accurately allow me to convey just how wrong it is!"
 

Xetheral

Three-Headed Sirrush
Not self-contradictory. What 'unutterably' means in this context is:-

"I can tell you that it's wrong, but the words do not exist that could accurately allow me to convey just how wrong it is!"

That's why I said it was self-contradictory in a superficial sense. I agree that the underlying meaning isn't self-contradictory.
 

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Guest 6801328

Guest
Ha! And it looks like Saelorn blocked me. I guess he was afraid to take that bet.

P.S. And in a D&D forum we should be using "ineffably" instead of "unutterably".
 

5ekyu

Hero
No, that would be unutterably wrong!

What this DM is trying to do is control what the PC does using their perfectly valid choice of class to take the player's agency away. This is the worst role-playing thing a DM can do.

The player decides what their PC does. Not the DM, and not the DM hiding behind the excuse of 'the patron made me do it'!
Not one of these controlled what the player did. Each of them applied an external influence. Each of them provided an opportunity to role play - not an order to be followed.

The external influence would come from a source voluntarily accepted at chargen in GM Player discussion ". Work with your DM to determine how big a part your pact will play in your character’s adventuring career."

Indeed, the same section discusses some of various ways the patron communication happens- includes dreams and waking visions and mystical messages that only the character can see.

But "your character is hungry" is according to you "This is the worst role-playing thing a DM can do." and an attempt tp control what they do even tho it was stated in the agreement "that you will then either act on or not,"

I can hear it now at tables running under such new era player agency...

DM: Well the trek thru the north has been tough and the going bleak. You haven't had food in days. Each of the NPCs with you is griping about the cold, lack of food and how hungry they are. But as an enlightened GM in the Eravof Player Agency Extreme I won't dare to say your PC is hungry in hope you choose to use it as a role playing opportunity. That would be unutterable wrong."

Thanks for again providing such a clear example.

EDIT TO ADD

Apparently now not providing a case for each of the three is cherry picking, so in deference to the response and claim below i will add in further examples.

DM: Well your trek has been hard and you haven't slept in many days. Each of the NPCs with you is griping about lack of sleep and are quite irritable and on edge, even angry at times from the effects of sleep deprivation.. But as an enlightened GM in the Era of Player Agency Extreme (PAX - tho pronounced like "pox" not "packs" because - pretentious) I won't dare to say your PC is sleepy or angry from the lack of sleep in hope you choose to use it as a role playing opportunity. That would be unutterable wrong."

Now, maybe this time, all cherries are left untouchers by the pickers.
 
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Kobold Boots

Banned
Banned
No, that would be unutterably wrong!

What this DM is trying to do is control what the PC does using their perfectly valid choice of class to take the player's agency away. This is the worst role-playing thing a DM can do.

The player decides what their PC does. Not the DM, and not the DM hiding behind the excuse of 'the patron made me do it'!

I agree with you to a point. Where that line is drawn is dependent on how transactional the DM and player relationship is.

In a highly transactional relationship, I'd expect that the player decides what the PC does and the world as controlled by the DM presents the valid choices based on what's available. This is no different from the real world where a person could have the potential to be the greatest pirate the world has ever seen, but if they grow up in America where pirates are less common, he or she will grow up to become a lawyer.

In a highly empathetic relationship, I'd expect that the player will have vast amounts of agency and be what he or she wants to be when they grow up.

Neither of these relationship types are wrong. My opinion is that players who started playing before 1991 are likely used to the former and those after 1991 are likely used to more of the latter.

The rules support both styles of play and it's a social matter, not a game rules matter.

Be well
KB
 

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Guest 6801328

Guest
But "your character is hungry" is according to you "This is the worst role-playing thing a DM can do."

You DID also include "sleepy" and "angry", and of the three "hungry" is the least offensive. So you're cherrypicking quotes in order to make his reaction seem outrageous. (And perhaps he should have been more careful to differentiate in his post.)

Yeah, sure, the DM can tell me I'm hungry. That's a physical condition. He can even impose mechanical penalties because of it.

But he CANNOT tell me how I feel about being hungry, or what I'm going to do about it. Or that I'm angry.*

*Standard caveat: "unless magic".

EDIT: However, upon further consideration, maybe this situation is ok after all. If the reason he's angry is because of the link with the patron, then, yeah, it's kind of like being under a Charm spell. However, in that case I would support his other argument: it's not fair to take a perfectly legal class or class combination and impose additional roleplaying requirements/penalties. Hopefully the player would think it's a cool idea and WANT to do it, but if he disagrees then maybe the DM and Player aren't really well suited for each other.
 
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