Arguments and assumptions against multi classing

5ekyu

Hero
Which goes back to the original point of this thread (at last! :D).

Some DMs forbid some multiclass combinations (read: paladin/warlock) for what they claim are 'fluff reasons'.

The reason that this approach is absurd is because they are pre-banning PCs before they even know what this particular PC's fluff actually is!

They are assuming that the as-yet unknown fluff will include two gods/patrons/powers that will not allow their 'servant' to serve two masters! Sure, that would be a valid reason to ban a PC....IF that was the situation!

But it might not be that situation! The 'green knight' Pal/War (ancients paladin/fey patron) is just one example from the PHB which doesn't need a 'you MUST be a powergamer' explanation, and there is no reason to automatically assume that god/patron could not work together, or even that god and patron cannot be one and the same being.

My first Pal/War PC's fluff was that The Fiend was pretending to be Odin, in order to corrupt the young paladin. So, Pal 2 to start, then MC to fiendish warlock 3, becoming a chainlock to an imp which ALWAYS kept it's raven form in front of my PC, pretending to be Odin's raven Huginn! But, although my PC believes that his abilities (both from the paladin class AND the warlock class, although 'class' is a purely metagame construct and has no place in the in-game reality of my PC who is just a person with a list of special abilities granted by 'Odin') come from Odin, ALL his special abilities in fact come from The Fiend.

With that fluff, "the paladin/warlock multiclass is banned because the god would not allow their servant to serve two masters" simply does not apply.

Pre-banning something for 'fluff reasons' makes no sense because you don't know what the fluff is yet. The player creates the fluff for their own PC, not the DM.

pretty much sums up several of my posts on the subject but does leave out one point.

it only makes sense to pre-ban combos for fluff if the setting/world forbids such fluff.

As i have said in my other post, it seems incredibly limiting to one's divinities to say they are not capable ever of using intermidiary lesser beings for a variety of purposes - including serving as go-between and as patrons. it seems extremely limiting to decide your campaign "gods" of magic cannot actually use an intermediary being to provide more access to magical abilities to their followers most devout to further serve their cause - as cleric-warlocks.

A Gm could rule in his setting that all his divinities are so limited they cannot or will not do this even tho it helps them - even though the divinity itself is using the intermediary to do the light work etc - not a case of some other player getting in the game.

In which case, well, that would likely need to show in a lot of other ways thu the game like very very strict dogma to be followed and clearly established conflicts/rivalries/competitions between the gods being a major thing in the world - at least as strong as the influences found in the greek myth. In the greek lore, and myth the gods were active, constant players in affairs - but even they were willing to send lesser beings and intermediaries to work with and act as go betweens. So whatever this world is where the gods wont or cant - wow, might be even worse.
 

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5ekyu

Hero
You DID also include "sleepy" and "angry", and of the three "hungry" is the least offensive. So you're cherrypicking quotes in order to make his reaction seem outrageous. (And perhaps he should have been more careful to differentiate in his post.)

Yeah, sure, the DM can tell me I'm hungry. That's a physical condition. He can even impose mechanical penalties because of it.

But he CANNOT tell me how I feel about being hungry, or what I'm going to do about it. Or that I'm angry.*

*Standard caveat: "unless magic".

EDIT: However, upon further consideration, maybe this situation is ok after all. If the reason he's angry is because of the link with the patron, then, yeah, it's kind of like being under a Charm spell. However, in that case I would support his other argument: it's not fair to take a perfectly legal class or class combination and impose additional roleplaying requirements/penalties. Hopefully the player would think it's a cool idea and WANT to do it, but if he disagrees then maybe the DM and Player aren't really well suited for each other.

Again, it was explicit that it was due to the link with the patron.

When did cherry picking become not covering every single case listed?

Can't tell players they are sleepy?

Again, explicitly said in post and in agreement they can choose to act on it or not.

And also made it clear it was an offer to the player as what their pact relationship with entity not knowing they exist was...

not enough for some to not see it as control.

Hilarious.

As for player and Gm not being on the same page - again this is part of the discussion between player and Gm about the relationship and an offer.

if the player rejects the offer, as Gm if they haven't provided a better offer for a patron who doesn't know they exist, then "well, your warlock to-be did not find a patron of that type that was "in agreement. maybe they do not exist or are so far removed you cannot tag them." Any other ideas or avenues you want to try?"

Likely that violates the agency too.

EDIT - In deference to the Cherry Pickers union, i added to the original post sleepy and angry description.
 
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5ekyu

Hero
Hmmm....should someone tell the White Wolf designers for their WoD Games VtM and WtA that their games (which are in no small part role-playing driven by the PCs having both hunger and rage influences of a supernatural nature acting on their characters) are examples of "trying to do is control what the PC does using their perfectly valid choice of class to take the player's agency away. This is the worst role-playing thing a DM can do."

Funny thing is, in the vtM campaigns i ran, it seemed like the players liked that sort of thing and did not see it as the most horrible thing a DM could do. how could i have missed their misery for all those years?
 

Satyrn

First Post
I would argue that anyone who goes around recruiting warlocks into the service of an evil dragon is probably not a good person, let alone the Ultimate Embodiment of Good. It could make sense if it's just a minor deity, though, like Hercules; he may be a decent guy, but he's still just a dude, and nobody is perfect.

I guess it's the difference between a good god, and a God of Good. (My settings tend more toward the latter than the former.)
Yeah, I'm treating my deities more like they're Greek gods, where not even the good ones are the embodiment of Good.

I don't want Bahamut to be perfect, since the PCs can actually talk to Bahamut and even adventure with him like Xena did with Aphrodite and Natalie Portman did with Thor. (And yes, that Aphrodite is a god in my setting alongside that Thor.)
 

Kobold Boots

Banned
Banned
Hmmm....should someone tell the White Wolf designers for their WoD Games VtM and WtA that their games (which are in no small part role-playing driven by the PCs having both hunger and rage influences of a supernatural nature acting on their characters) are examples of "trying to do is control what the PC does using their perfectly valid choice of class to take the player's agency away. This is the worst role-playing thing a DM can do."

Funny thing is, in the vtM campaigns i ran, it seemed like the players liked that sort of thing and did not see it as the most horrible thing a DM could do. how could i have missed their misery for all those years?

Honestly, when I made my observation about the 1991 cutoff between transactional and empathetic relationship options, I was specifically referring to when TWoD hit the shelves.
 


smbakeresq

Explorer
Which goes back to the original point of this thread (at last! :D).

Some DMs forbid some multiclass combinations (read: paladin/warlock) for what they claim are 'fluff reasons'.

The reason that this approach is absurd is because they are pre-banning PCs before they even know what this particular PC's fluff actually is!

They are assuming that the as-yet unknown fluff will include two gods/patrons/powers that will not allow their 'servant' to serve two masters! Sure, that would be a valid reason to ban a PC....IF that was the situation!

But it might not be that situation! The 'green knight' Pal/War (ancients paladin/fey patron) is just one example from the PHB which doesn't need a 'you MUST be a powergamer' explanation, and there is no reason to automatically assume that god/patron could not work together, or even that god and patron cannot be one and the same being.

My first Pal/War PC's fluff was that The Fiend was pretending to be Odin, in order to corrupt the young paladin. So, Pal 2 to start, then MC to fiendish warlock 3, becoming a chainlock to an imp which ALWAYS kept it's raven form in front of my PC, pretending to be Odin's raven Huginn! But, although my PC believes that his abilities (both from the paladin class AND the warlock class, although 'class' is a purely metagame construct and has no place in the in-game reality of my PC who is just a person with a list of special abilities granted by 'Odin') come from Odin, ALL his special abilities in fact come from The Fiend.

With that fluff, "the paladin/warlock multiclass is banned because the god would not allow their servant to serve two masters" simply does not apply.

Pre-banning something for 'fluff reasons' makes no sense because you don't know what the fluff is yet. The player creates the fluff for their own PC, not the DM.

How is your Paladin getting his special Paladin abilities from The Fiend? It seems to me you are so desperate to get in a Paladin/warlock combo you took it upon yourself to fluff The Fiend into a divine entity to support your Paladin or for the Fiend to be able to grant divine Paladin abilities, while at the same time a god in the campaign does nothing about The Fiend impersonating said God.

Did you clear that with your DM? Would you go the that effort with a elf fighter/rogue combo, or it that not powerful enough to bother with?
 

Kobold Boots

Banned
Banned
How is your Paladin getting his special Paladin abilities from The Fiend? It seems to me you are so desperate to get in a Paladin/warlock combo you took it upon yourself to fluff The Fiend into a divine entity to support your Paladin or for the Fiend to be able to grant divine Paladin abilities, while at the same time a god in the campaign does nothing about The Fiend impersonating said God.

Did you clear that with your DM? Would you go the that effort with a elf fighter/rogue combo, or it that not powerful enough to bother with?

It's pretty simple really. He's confusing "divine" with "infernal" or taking a really holistic definition of divine to include infernal because why should the actual English definition of "divine" meaning "sacred" be taken to not mean "of hell or sacrilegious"?

I can see his point because popular media has made the point of questioning the lens that we look at good through since at least the 60s, (one popular example being Return of the Sith, Anakin's "I think the Jedi are Evil" approach).

That said, the DM's world view of what English vocabulary means in the context of the rules is a social issue, not a rules issue. My own point of view is that English vocabulary is interpreted the way it's supposed to be, not the way media colors it.

KB
 

TwoSix

Dirty, realism-hating munchkin powergamer
How is your Paladin getting his special Paladin abilities from The Fiend? It seems to me you are so desperate to get in a Paladin/warlock combo you took it upon yourself to fluff The Fiend into a divine entity to support your Paladin or for the Fiend to be able to grant divine Paladin abilities, while at the same time a god in the campaign does nothing about The Fiend impersonating said God.

Did you clear that with your DM? Would you go the that effort with a elf fighter/rogue combo, or it that not powerful enough to bother with?
Because paladin abilities are simply abilities, and the concepts of arcane and divine carry no mechanical weight within the system.

And fighter/rogue is arguably more powerful than paladin/warlock.
 

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