Mearls On D&D's Design Premises/Goals

First of all, thanks Morrus for collecting this. I generally avoid Twitter because, frankly, it's full of a$$holes. That aside: this is an interesting way of looking at it, and underscores the difference in design philosophies between the WotC team and the Paizo team. There is a lot of room for both philosophies of design, and I don't think there is any reason for fans of one to be hostile to...

First of all, thanks [MENTION=1]Morrus[/MENTION] for collecting this. I generally avoid Twitter because, frankly, it's full of a$$holes.

That aside: this is an interesting way of looking at it, and underscores the difference in design philosophies between the WotC team and the Paizo team. There is a lot of room for both philosophies of design, and I don't think there is any reason for fans of one to be hostile to fans of the other, but those differences do matter. There are ways in which I like the prescriptive elements of 3.x era games (I like set skill difficulty lists, for example) but I tend to run by the seat of my pants and the effects of my beer, so a fast and loose and forgiving version like 5E really enables me running a game the way I like to.
 

Maxperson

Morkus from Orkus
It isn't the entirety of combat, no, but initiative is one of the five steps of combat and so falls under the umbrella description of "a clash between two sides".

You've got this backwards. Direct opposition in the form of the start of a combat encounter leads to the rolling of initiative.

It does not mean direct opposition at all. It's entirely possible for two parties to encounter each other, roll initiative, and never intend to oppose each other at all.

You can talk on your turn. The key here, however, is the group started to attack you before you rolled initiative, so the direct opposition is already present.

I can prove this to be false. Both sides can in fact be surprised and get no actions. Two stealthy groups round a corner and everyone ends up surprised. Roll initiative and yet nobody has started any sort of attack whatsoever.
 

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Kobold Boots

Banned
Banned
That must make on-the-fly tactics co-ordination a pain for the front-liners, if nothing else; never mind the taunting and threats piece...

"Go left!"
"I got this!"
"Joa, cover the Elf, she's down!"
"They've got a caster! Back right!"
"Andy! Incoming behind you!" (nickname for Andiriana or some other equally-long name)
"Surrender or die!"
"You want some o' this?!"
"Medic! I'm hurtin' here!"
"Twenty-two!"
"Twenty-three!"
"Parlay!"

Any one of these takes a second or less to say, and any one could change the upcoming action of one or more allies and-or foes. (well, except for the kill count...)

Lan-"that still only counts as one!"-efan



Not to be the king of picky nits, but I'm going to be.

Time how long it takes you to say one syllable. Unless you're really rushing it's a second. They've got a caster back right is at minimum 3 seconds. Parlay I can see, Same with numbers.
 

jonesy

A Wicked Kendragon
Not to be the king of picky nits, but I'm going to be.

Time how long it takes you to say one syllable. Unless you're really rushing it's a second. They've got a caster back right is at minimum 3 seconds. Parlay I can see, Same with numbers.
Let's be super-nitpicky then: the next step in this line of thinking is codeword combat where the players/characters come up with a playbook of things they can shout at each other.

"Kopi!" (Enemy caster behind us on the right side)
"Kopa!" (Enemy caster behind us on the left side)
And so on.
 

Maxperson

Morkus from Orkus
Not to be the king of picky nits, but I'm going to be.

Time how long it takes you to say one syllable. Unless you're really rushing it's a second. They've got a caster back right is at minimum 3 seconds. Parlay I can see, Same with numbers.

I don't think it matters, though. Let's say it takes 3 seconds. That's 3 seconds of talking while you swing your sword and move. A short sentence like that doesn't have to fit into the rest of what you are doing on your turn. It's in addition to what you do on your turn. I also don't think it's anywhere close to a second a syllable, either. I can say the word chocolate(three syllables) at a normal pace in under a second.
 

Hriston

Dungeon Master of Middle-earth
That must make on-the-fly tactics co-ordination a pain for the front-liners, if nothing else; never mind the taunting and threats piece...

"Go left!"
"I got this!"
"Joa, cover the Elf, she's down!"
"They've got a caster! Back right!"
"Andy! Incoming behind you!" (nickname for Andiriana or some other equally-long name)
"Surrender or die!"
"You want some o' this?!"
"Medic! I'm hurtin' here!"
"Twenty-two!"
"Twenty-three!"
"Parlay!"

Any one of these takes a second or less to say, and any one could change the upcoming action of one or more allies and-or foes. (well, except for the kill count...)

Lan-"that still only counts as one!"-efan

I look at it this way: In the fictional six seconds represented by a round of combat, every participant has the opportunity to emit about six seconds of speech. At the table, these speeches are made in initiative order, but like the movements and actions of the participants overlap in the fiction, so do their speeches all take place at roughly the same time. The quickness of those high in the initiative order explains why their friends don’t have the opportunity to shout warnings and instructions they can benefit from before springing into action.
 

Kobold Boots

Banned
Banned
I don't think it matters, though. Let's say it takes 3 seconds. That's 3 seconds of talking while you swing your sword and move. A short sentence like that doesn't have to fit into the rest of what you are doing on your turn. It's in addition to what you do on your turn. I also don't think it's anywhere close to a second a syllable, either. I can say the word chocolate(three syllables) at a normal pace in under a second.

You’re right that it doesn’t matter at all, but I’ll challenge your cognitive definition of a second of real time against what actually is a second of real time. I find that folks have that disconnect all the time.
 

Kobold Boots

Banned
Banned
Let's be super-nitpicky then: the next step in this line of thinking is codeword combat where the players/characters come up with a playbook of things they can shout at each other.

"Kopi!" (Enemy caster behind us on the right side)
"Kopa!" (Enemy caster behind us on the left side)
And so on.

If you wanted to and play the sort of game that goes to that extreme, sure.
 

Maxperson

Morkus from Orkus
You’re right that it doesn’t matter at all, but I’ll challenge your cognitive definition of a second of real time against what actually is a second of real time. I find that folks have that disconnect all the time.

I tested it before I posted. I also have an excellent sense of time. ;)
 


pemerton

Legend
Pemerton, re-reading your reply, are you suggesting I should pay attention to the "economy" of combat encounters & short/long rests in 5e?
Say: we don't do much dungeon crawl, nor use AdvPaths, is that going to be a problem, possibly a game breaking one?
This gets into fairly contentious territory - but my answer is a firm "yes", and it's probably the main reason I'm not very enthusiastic about 5e as a system.

I'll elaborate - I've got two reasons, a primary one and a secondary one.

The primary reason: in a system (like 5e or 13th Age) with strongly asymmetric suites of player resources, the balance of intra-party mechanical effectiveness can easily be broken - normally by those players with long-rest-recovery deploying them in a nova fashion, and then taking steps to recover them - which means those players with short-rest recovery or at-will resources don't get the benefit of their more rapid recovery times.

13th Age solves this problem by sheer stipulation - after 4 combats the players get the benefit of a long rest - but that feature of mechanical pacing puts pressure on the GM to shape the fiction and the in-fiction pacing in such a way that the recovery makes sense.

The standard recommended approach in 5e is for the GM to exercise very strong control over the pacing and the availability of rests, which then generates uncertainy on the parts of the players about the prospects of resource recovery, and thus reduces the tendency of players with long-rest-recovery resources to spend them profligately.

But that leads into my secondary reason: the result of resource-conservation is that, at least some of the time and perhaps quite a bit of the time, you don't get to play your PC (in the full mechanical sense of that notion). If my conception of my character is as a fireballing blaster then I want to cast fireballs, not conserve them!

(I regard classic D&D as an exception to this - in classic dungeon crawling RPGing the PC isn't really a character to be played, but a suite of resources and capabilities to be managed. Converving appropriately is part of that. But it's far from my favourite approach to RPGing - I prefer more contemporary styles where player mechanical resources are the devices whereby the character is played by engaging with the fiction and declaring actions.)

The last system I played/GMed in a serious way that had asymmetric resource suites was Rolemaster. In my first long RM campaign we solved the problem by having everyone play wizards (so while there was asymmetry in the rules, there was not very much at our table). In our second long campaign we tweaked some rules and also adopted some conventions which meant that, as a general proposition, a caster had to nova to be on a par with a non-caster - but had a degree of versatility and supernatural capability (eg non-casters can't fly or just turn invisible in the middle of a plain) which made up for this lack of sheer effectiveness.

But for the past 10 years I've only played/GMed games with symmetric resource suites, with the exception of a couple of sessions of AD&D (which fall into the paranthetical exception noted above).

Edit: Re APs - I would never recommend APs (!) and by all accounts the published ones for 5e don't do a particularly good job of managing these pacing issues.

I think not doing dungeon crawls makes the presupposed pacing of 6-8 encounters per adventuring day harder to pull off - a fairly standard solution (that many 4e tables also used) is to upscale short/long rests to 1x/day and 1x/week. (An alternative to 1x/week is you must be at a haven/safe place, but if you mostly play city or courtly adventures that mightn't help.)

The real issue is managing pacing so that nova-ing of long-rest-recovery resources doesn't become a dominant strategy.
 
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