Generation Ships--- Can we build one now?

Hussar · Feb 9, 2019

Shasarak said:
If it is slavery then who owns who?

Hrm, you are forced into servitude for life from birth, have zero choice, cannot resign and cannot leave. In what way is this not slavery? Not only that, but your children, your children's children and their children as well are also forced into servitude with no recourse. Oh, you don't want to have a baby with that person? Sorry, too bad, we need your DNA. Oh, you're gay? Again, too bad, we need your DNA. You don't want to be an engineer? You want to be an artist? Too bad, you have no choice since the last person who died so that you could be born was an engineer. That's what we need.

Oh, you want to have more children? Nope, sorry you have no reproductive rights. No rights to personal freedom. No rights to religion. No rights to free speech. It's unlikely you'd have any rights to self determination.

How is this not slavery? It's even more insidious than the usual sort of slavery since slaves on Earth can revolt and be freed. You will never, ever be free, nor will your children or their children, until, dozens of generations down the line, your decedents manage to reach the destination. And, even then, they still likely won't be free because they'll be forced to create a new colony, whether they want to or not.

Shasarak · Feb 9, 2019

Hussar said:
Hrm, you are forced into servitude for life from birth, have zero choice, cannot resign and cannot leave. In what way is this not slavery? Not only that, but your children, your children's children and their children as well are also forced into servitude with no recourse. Oh, you don't want to have a baby with that person? Sorry, too bad, we need your DNA. Oh, you're gay? Again, too bad, we need your DNA. You don't want to be an engineer? You want to be an artist? Too bad, you have no choice since the last person who died so that you could be born was an engineer. That's what we need.

Oh, you want to have more children? Nope, sorry you have no reproductive rights. No rights to personal freedom. No rights to religion. No rights to free speech. It's unlikely you'd have any rights to self determination.

How is this not slavery? It's even more insidious than the usual sort of slavery since slaves on Earth can revolt and be freed. You will never, ever be free, nor will your children or their children, until, dozens of generations down the line, your decedents manage to reach the destination. And, even then, they still likely won't be free because they'll be forced to create a new colony, whether they want to or not.

I think you are confusing Culture with Slavery. The Chinese have birth control without having Slavery. The Jews have selected breeding without Slavery. The Muslims do not have any Gay people without Slavery.

I might even agree with some of your points if it was not for this weird fixation on Slavery. I mean if you had said that Section A raided Section F, captured some people and took them back to work in the Soylent Green mines then I would agree, that would be Slavery.

Aeson · Feb 9, 2019

This ship has gone down fast.

Ryujin · Feb 9, 2019

More technological feudalism, than slavery.

Hussar · Feb 9, 2019

Ah. I see we have arrived at the overly pedantic portion of the discussion. Good to know.

Note, you could get around this issue by having very large generation ships with populations in the millions. Essentially worlds in their own right.

Of course once you can do this, the need to leave your own solar system gets a lot less important. Just build what are effectively tiny Dyson spheres and enjoy more or less unlimited population.

Shasarak · Feb 9, 2019

Yeah the overly pedantic portion where words mean what they actually mean and not whatever you say they mean.

I wonder what reaction I wiould get if I went to my Indian friend and told him that his arranged marriage was actually slavery.

tomBitonti · Feb 9, 2019

If we can get past what particular label best fits, certainly, the lives of ship dwellers would be extremely constrained. Though, this seems to be an ethical/moral issue rather than a feasibility issue. As a related issue, one of the ways to manage the community would be to flat out lie.

But, what if the ship dwellers didn’t have to work: The ship might be highly automated. They would have a lot of leisure time, which they can pursue as they choose, within the scope of what is possible in the ship.

When I consider this question, I find myself led to three questions: Can we build a ship that stays functional for the necessary duration, which is likely thousands of years. (I don’t think this is yet demonstrated.) Can we build an ecosystem that can be maintained for the same duration? (Our current durations seem to be measured in single digits of years.). Can we keep passengers crew sane and focused on the mission? (This I have no idea.)

I also find myself asking a stronger question: Could a generation ship ever be built? There might be basic problems, say, limits on material reliability, or limits on error free transmissions, which make this impossible.

Thx!
TomB

Tonguez · Feb 9, 2019

tomBitonti said:
If we can get past what particular label best fits, certainly, the lives of ship dwellers would be extremely constrained. Though, this seems to be an ethical/moral issue rather than a feasibility issue. As a related issue, one of the ways to manage the community would be to flat out lie.

Can we keep passengers crew sane and focused on the mission? (This I have no idea.)

That question of sanity is what makes the lives of ship dwellers more than just an ethical issue and raises it to a fundamental issue of survival. Even more so if the the crew are largely leisure focused. DO we get excessive drug and alcohol consumption? what happens if a person steals or if there is a fight and somebody is killed?

It takes only one person to become aberrant for the whole structure to crumble - so do you have a totalitarian system where aberrant behaviour is eliminated immediately? Do you encourage compliance and opiates

What happens to political dissent?

WHat happens when two tribes go to war?

Olgar Shiverstone · Feb 9, 2019

Tonguez said:
WHat happens when two tribes go to war?

You get Expedition to the Barrier Peaks.

Umbran · Feb 9, 2019

Shasarak said:
How does being born on a Generation ship make you a slave?

If you are forced to labor, you are a slave. On the generation ship, can you choose to pursue your own vocation as you see fit, or choose to not work at all? If not, you're in some form of servitude to the polity of the ship.

Other things that may need to be done on a generation ship will seem like an abrogation of other rights - forcing you to donate your gametes to make children, for example, isn't slavery, but would likely count as an invasion of the right of privacy to an American.

An arranged marriage, in and of itself, is not a problem, so long as it is consensual for all parties. If, upon considering refusing, threats or coercion are applied to *make* people marry, that's forced marriage, and is not legal.