Do orcs in gaming display parallels to colonialist propaganda?

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pemerton

Legend
@pemerton, I don't agree with @Bedrockgames on all topics that he/she/they have mentioned in this thred, but this seems like a pretty unfair interpretation of his/her/their words.
Well, if by "a vast majority of people" is meant a vast majority of people I hang out with, or even a vast majority of white Americans, then why not say that?

I get fed up with appeals to what some unidentified, unsurveyed but intuited and imputed "majority" thinks about these issues. In my experience it's mostly a rhetorical device intended to get people who disagree with the speaker to shut up about it.
 

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generic

On that metempsychosis tweak
Well, if by "a vast majority of people" is meant a vast majority of people I hang out with, or even a vast majority of white Americans, then why not say that?

I get fed up with appeals to what some unidentified, unsurveyed but intuited and imputed "majority" thinks about these issues. In my experience it's mostly a rhetorical device intended to get people who disagree with the speaker to shut up about it.

That's understandable. I hadn't been keeping track of all of your interactions throughout the thread.
 

Derren

Hero
I get fed up with appeals to what some unidentified, unsurveyed but intuited and imputed "majority" thinks about these issues. In my experience it's mostly a rhetorical device intended to get people who disagree with the speaker to shut up about it.

So you counter it by unidentified, unsurveyed minority thoughts?
 

I'm not sure what you think that is a "solution" to.

It's a suggestion that the best way to find out if a trope or idea is racist is to see what people of colour believe about it. Do you think that's bad advice?

I think it is incomplete advice and possibly reductive. POC is a very broad term encompassing many different people. I think you definitely need to weigh the views of people from the affected group(s). But you shouldn’t stop there. You have to weigh other people’s opinions and your own. We have to have a conversation and decide for ourselves based on that, and the evidence. And we have to account for our own principles as we do so.
 

pemerton

Legend
As a point of interest, did anyone ever claim that Australian Aboriginals were coming to kill you and destroy your civilisation? I highly doubt it.
The claim that Indigenous Tasmanian were criminal marauders attacking British colonists was defended most recenlty in Keith Windschuttle's book The Fabrication of Aboriginal History (2002).

The publication of this book, and the responses to it, were major events in Australian politics at that time.
 

Aldarc

Legend
The solutions I am seeing are things like automatically accept peoples reactions to things because of what group they belong to. But I think there are also just solutions to this kind of discussion playing out on social media. And that is the constriction of creativity I am talking about (for instance you can see it in debates about cultural appropriation and fantasy settings-----which I think is getting much harder to navigate).
When someone tells me that I stepped on their toes, I tend to accept their word for it and attempt to be more mindful of my step going forth. Are the bounds my feet can traverse being "constricted" now? Sure, technically, but there is still plenty of space for me to walk freely, comfortably, and ably. The only thing that has really changed is that people are actually a little less tolerable about having their toes brazenly stepped upon and have a greater platform to voice their issues regarding my indifference, neglect, or even malice to their discomfort.

But let us consider this as well. Are the published works that we are seeing now in the RPG more or less diverse in their creative fantasy than they were before? I would actually wager that we are seeing a far greater diversity of tropes, imaginations, and settings than what we saw before. Even looking across the different settings of D&D, most fall within a "mostly the same" set of overlapping tropes. Some undoubtedly break the mold, but most reinforce it. So is this what unbridled creativity looks like? Greyhawk, Mystara, Forgotten Realms, Dragonlance, and Generic Fantasylandia no. 5?

Many of these newer works do not tread as heavily or often on toes as prior works. So I think that your worries about the "constriction of creativity" are misapplied, as it only applies to a small, problematic subset of fantasy rather than on the whole. But sure, if your preferred mode of fantasy RPG lies within that limited scope, then I could see how you would feel that your entire world is coming under assault. But for many who are effortlessly creating new fantasy works outside of that smaller subset, then it comes across as an unfounded complaint that is insensitive to the problems other people have experienced therein.

And it may genuinely be difficult for you to navigate this changing world. IME, it is important that we that try to the best of our abilities, showing good will and patience to others, being mindful of where we step. However, the answer to stepping repeatedly on people's toes is not to deny that we are doing it or that it is the fault of others. We should show a willingness to accept error, apologize, and learn from our mistakes. We will naturally step on toes from time to time. And sometimes if we look around, we may realize that we were walking unnecessarily close on top of people where we actually had a ballroom available at our leisure to dance.

I think (white) Americans are very lucky not to have been oppressed by anyone since George III - and that was about the mildest oppression possible. And they tend to project their experience onto other Europeans.
As a white native born and bred in the American South, with native family extending back to the time before the American Revolution, I am not particularly concerned with any imagined oppression my ancestors experienced, but, rather, with the long, dark legacy and consequences of the real racism, colonialism, and oppression that they enabled, performed, and defended. I will carry this albatross with me to my grave.
 

S'mon

Legend
The claim that Indigenous Tasmanian were criminal marauders attacking British colonists was defended most recenlty in Keith Windschuttle's book The Fabrication of Aboriginal History (2002).

The publication of this book, and the responses to it, were major events in Australian politics at that time.

Ah, right. Was this given as a justification for wiping out the Tasmanians?
 

dragoner

KosmicRPG.com
That doesn't make me a bad person.

I don't think you would have to say this if not for the Olympic amount of mental gymnastics needed to defend the indefensible.

What I can say is that I'm glad that I don't do denial in order to believe in something.

“Since there is no one else to praise me, I will praise myself -- will say that I have never tampered with a single tooth in my thought machine, such as it is. There are teeth missing, God knows -- some I was born without, teeth that will never grow. And other teeth have been stripped by the clutchless shifts of history -- But never have I willfully destroyed a tooth on a gear of my thinking machine. Never have I said to myself, 'This fact I can do without.”
― Kurt Vonnegut, Mother Night
 

S'mon

Legend
As a white native born and bred in the American South, with native family extending back to the time before the American Revolution, I am not particularly concerned with any imagined oppression my ancestors experienced, but, rather, with the long, dark legacy and consequences of the real racism, colonialism, and oppression that they enabled, performed, and defended. I will carry this albatross with me to my grave.

Indeed - that was my point.
 

pemerton

Legend
Ah, right. Was this given as a justification for wiping out the Tasmanians?
Sort of. It was part of an attack on more mainstream historical accounts of frontier violence - what are called, in the Australian lexicon, "massacres".

The book was sponsored by a small but culturally and politically very important magazine called Quadrant. (Although I would suggest that the importance of Quadrant has declined over the past decade or so, due primarily to poor editorial leadership.) At the time, the Prime Minister of the country described Quadrant as his favourite magazine, and the Murdoch press (which dominates Australian media) was championing Windschuttle's book.
 

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