Do orcs in gaming display parallels to colonialist propaganda?

[lowkey13]

*Deleted by user*

 

[Bedrockgames]

That isn’t what I am saying. But obviously I don’t subscribe to the worldview you are espousing. I don’t believe in relinquishingbour responsibility to think for ourselves. Absolutely we should listen to people affected. We shouldn’t reduce everyone in the conversation to their skin color or identity.

 

[Bedrockgames]

I don't think you would have to say this if not for the Olympic amount of mental gymnastics needed to defend the indefensible.

What I can say is that I'm glad that I don't do denial in order to believe in something.

“Since there is no one else to praise me, I will praise myself -- will say that I have never tampered with a single tooth in my thought machine, such as it is. There are teeth missing, God knows -- some I was born without, teeth that will never grow. And other teeth have been stripped by the clutchless shifts of history -- But never have I willfully destroyed a tooth on a gear of my thinking machine. Never have I said to myself, 'This fact I can do without.”
― Kurt Vonnegut, Mother Night

You think believing evil orcs are not a racist or colonialist trope is indefensible?

 

[dragoner]

You think believing evil orcs are not a racist or colonialist trope is indefensible?

Facts are true whether you believe in them or not.

 

[dragoner]

Indeed - that was my point.

There is no point there, honestly. It doesn't matter who you are, it's the representation of the Orcs that's an issue. If you simply changed the name from Orc to Pakistani in your pub games, how soon would you be compared to Tommy Robinson? Fairly quick and you know it. So with all things considered, it's the representation of the Orcs that's wrong.

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

But it doesn't mean they are right that it is a problem for the broader culture. I could be really bothered by something, but my reaction might be a very unreasonable one. I am not saying we should ignore peoples' concerns, dismiss them, or lack empathy. I am saying we should not give up our responsibility to think for ourselves.

Are you having a comprehension problem?

Because I am NOT saying you automatically believe the complainer or stop thinking for yourself.

Spelling it out: I am saying that if someone complains that there is a problem, then there is a problem for at least one person. You must then investigate whether the issue is unique to them or more widely spread; whether things are being accurately reported or not.

What you DON’T do is immediately, reflexively respond with “it’s not a problem because __________” or other dismissive positions.

If, after rejecting a single claim, you receive similar complaints of the same nature, then you need to reinvestigate, because your initial rejection may have been wrong (for a variety of reasons).

 

[Bedrockgames]

I know you don't mean the implications of your statement. Because I know you are well-meaning.

But this is roughly the equivalent of-

"Sure, I know that the people in positions of power have completely ignored and marginalized your voices for years, decades, and centuries. But now that you finally have something of a platform, however small ...

I'd really like it if you can stop and think for a second about how your complaints affect me. And wouldn't it be nice if instead of me listening to you, how about you listen to me? How about we weigh my opinions too? Sure, you've had centuries of oppression, and stuff like that. I mean, things probably suck today, too. But what about my concerns? I mean, there are things I like, and things I do, and I don't want that to be ruined. I'd like to be able to do things, and read things, and talk about things without feeling bad."

Again, I know you mean well. I just think you might be a little bit blind to how your arguments might appear.

I agree that a lot of this is difficult- difficult to talk about, difficult to deal with.

But when you're arguing against listening to people who haven't had the same life experience as you have as "reductive," you might want to examine your a priori reasons for arguing, and perhaps what your real goal is?

To bring it back to TTRPG; yeah, I appreciate the nostalgia value of running B2. But I'd have to be blind to not understand the antecedents.

I think we are both politically similar but subscribe to very different worldview. Understand that, to me this language sounds like salvation religion rather than discussion of subjective interpretations of media tropes.

 

[Aldarc]

So why would orcs resemble people that got colonized and not one of the many examples of barbarians which occasionally raided cities like the Huns, Mongols or other tribes from the middle east or even just the myriads of "more primitive people than us on the other side of the border" which existed basically everywhere in some form and would be a much better fit?

Notably all of your examples of comparison (1) do commonly represent (to Euro-America at least) the dangerous, foreign other from the East who poses a threat to the "civilized West," and (2) these resemblances are indeed used in many depictions of the orcs, including Tolkien's, and (3) these are resemblances are problematic for reasons that have already been elucidated in this thread.

Indeed - that was my point.

And are the citizens of the UK not burdened by any albatrosses of their own? It seems short-sighted to suggest that this is just an Australian or American problem, while ignoring British culpability in these matters and beyond.

 

[S'mon]

There is no point there, honestly. It doesn't matter who you are, it's the representation of the Orcs that's an issue. If you simply changed the name from Orc to Pakistani in your pub games...

And if I changed "Orc" to "Nazi"? What then?

I think this sort of hypothetical is a silly argument. You have to take the Orc as an Orc, before
you can judge whether it evokes colonialist tropes - which I think it can, but moreso in recent
usage. AFAICS WotC D&D's 3e-4e-5e orcs 'evoke colonialist tropes' much more than does Tolkien.

 

[Bedrockgames]

Are you having a comprehension problem?

Because I am NOT saying you automatically believe the complainer or stop thinking for yourself.

Spelling it out: I am saying that if someone complains that there is a problem, then I here is a problem for at least one person. You must then investigate whether the issue is unique to them or more widely spread; whether things are being accurately reported or not.

What you DON’T do is immediately, reflexively respond with “it’s not a problem because __________” or other dismissive positions.

If, after rejecting a single claim, you receive similar complaints of the same nature, then you need to reinvestigate, because your initial rejection may have been wrong (for a variety of reasons).

If I misunderstood you, I apologize. But I think what I am saying hasn’t been received as well. Fair enough. But this is an old discussion. Like I said, I have explored this problem and asked other people about and these are the conclusions I have reached. I don’t really know what else to say, except I just don’t feel or believe the same was as others on this thread do.