Do orcs in gaming display parallels to colonialist propaganda?

[Dannyalcatraz]

As far as I'm concerned, the Indians have every right to make stories about British imperial oppression, and Tolkien had every right to make a story evoking the Fall of Constantinople and the Siege of Vienna. With orcs.

I agree.

But problems arise when anyone- regardless of ethnicity or status- starts to rely on discredited stereotypes to tell their stories. Especially if the stories are not period pieces. It’s one thing for a character in a period story to use racial stereotypes of his place and time, it’s another to import them into a completely fictionalized setting.

 

[S'mon]

I would agree. But large groups can still be wrong which is why I say we have a responsibility to think for ourselves.

I guess I think these things are pretty much entirely about subjective experiences. We should probably accept that people's claimed subjective experiences are genuinely held, by and large (people could be lying or exaggerating, but this is fairly rare I think). Even when it doesn't fit our own experiences.

It may be worth pointing out genuine cultural misunderstandings, such as my example upthread of the American woman being called 'Love' in Yorkshire. Even then it may not do much good.

I would say there is a big step from "I have understood you" to "I will do what you want". The Pieds Noir French settlers in Algeria cheered deGaulle when he said "I have understood you" - right before he abandoned them.

I once ca 2013 had a female player object to a picture of a female fighter pregen PC in a halter top, in a sword & sorcery inflected D&D game. If this happened frequently I'd stop using such pictures (I offered her alternate pictures, which she rejected). In the event this has never happened since, and many female players seem to enjoy the chance to play wearing-less-than-Xena type characters, so I now regard that player as an outlier. But I'm at any rate aware that such a reaction is possible and that has moderated my behaviour somewhat. Last year I had a black, female player ask to take over playing a blonde, topless (with pic) Amazon warrior NPC as her new PC in my Wilderlands campaign. I was happy to agree, but I'd not have handed her the Amazon as a pregen and said "Here, play this."

 

[Bedrockgames]

Why do you think it’s narrow?

Just based on my recollection of being school this wasn't stuff you tended to encounter in geology courses, in history (which was my major), etc. I was a viewpoint that seemed much more prevalent in communications, literature and critical studies departments. Maybe things have changed. Ether way, I think it is bit advanced, as I know I have difficulty with a lot of the language and I have a degree myself.

As I recall, S’mon is a professor of law in the UK.

My background is...complicated. Double major (9 hours short of double BA) in philosophy and economics, with minors in English lit, Art, and Art History. Law degree. MBA in marketing. Training in mediation techniques. Learned a few instruments along the way as well, one at a pro level. Etc.

Okay, this just helps make my point though that there is a divide in the hobby between people with advanced degrees who are steeped in academia and those who are not. You and S'mon are both very educated. Which is good but can be bad if you are failing to appreciate others don't see the world the way you do.

Why? Because my family believed in a broad educational base. All 4 of my grandparents were teachers- 2 college profs, 2 elementary teachers- and Mom taught in HS. I was basically in school year round from 3rd grade until I passed the bar.

That is good, but can you see how much that sets you in advance of other people when it comes these things? My dad went to college (a state school associated with working class families, which I also went to). He was salesman. But mother didn't have a college degree. None of my grandparents went to college. My dad's father was a truck driver, my mom's father was a stone mason. Most of my family is not college educated. Most work service or construction type jobs. I am very happy for you that you have achieved great things with your education, but I do think this is still illustrating my point a bit.

So my personal reaction to thinking of this area as needing special education is that this isn’t STEM. THIS IS SPARTA!

To you it may not be complicated. I think it is very complicated to other people who are not as accustomed to this stuff.

This- initially- is asking a simple question of whether fictional characters display certain characteristics with problematic real-world stereotypical depictions of human beings. And these depictions are part of our culture.

This is an “anyone with eyes” kind of comparison, not quantum physics.

It was initially about whether orcs are a colonialist propaganda parallel. I don't think that question you raise is quantum physics. But I do think the in depth analysis of the trope we are having is complicated. If you find it simple, that is great. I don't find it very simple at all. For instance, even looking at the text where Tolkien talks about eye shape there were lots of questions that led to in my mind that needed to be explored (one of which you answered, which am thankful for). Like i mentioned, my background is history, so I think the contextualization of what Tolkien was trying to do, what the world was like at the time, and then how the trope itself evolved are all important factors. That is why I said it is on the cusp in the case of Tolkien, and I think the association with anything nefarious becomes more tenuous over time.

 

[Bedrockgames]

I guess I think these things are pretty much entirely about subjective experiences. We should probably accept that people's claimed subjective experiences are genuinely held, by and large (people could be lying or exaggerating, but this is fairly rare I think). Even when it doesn't fit our own experiences.
.

I don't doubt this. But there are better and worse reactions we can have to things. It is one thing if a person sees a trope, it is clearly racist and they react accordingly. but if they've been educated and trained to constantly search for any hint of racism, and then react profoundly when they see, I think that isn't a very healthy way to approach world (not saying people are doing that here, but that is something I've encountered in these kinds of discussions).

 

[Umbran]

I would agree. But large groups can still be wrong which is why I say we have a responsibility to think for ourselves.

But, failing to re-examine is pointedly *not* thinking.

You posed the question of, "Is this a problem for the broader culture?"

How many complaints do you need to get before your answer to the question becomes, "Yes"? Purely statistically, you should accept that accumulated complaints eventually constitute data, rather than isolated personal anecdotes. How many people have to report pain in their feet before you accept that toes are, in fact, getting stepped on?

So long as you are looking at, and dismissing, complaints individually, you are apt to fail to see the pattern. Moreso if you have an emotional interest in *not* accepting it as an issue for the broader culture. Those of us with privilege generally have such an interest, because not accepting it as an issue means we get to ignore it and not take action. If we accept it as an issue, then morally and ethically we really ought to *do* something about it, and perhaps recognize our own small part in the issue, which would be uncomfortable.

 

[Bedrockgames]

If that is what you’re seeing, I have to say that I think you’re misunderstanding some people. Me at the very least.

I don't think you and I have been at odds as much on this as me and some of the other posters. I've found most of your posts to be quite reasonable even when I disagree.

 

[Doug McCrae]

So overall it felt rather that Gygax was doing more an inversion of 1930s tropes, than simply copying them.

Yes, unlike Stoddard and Howard, Gary isn't saying that people of colour are inferior and he isn't saying that race "mixture" is a bad thing. However he's replicating their language, he's saying that race* is important (purely by the amount of space he spends discussing it), and he's oddly expressing an aesthetic preference regarding people of certain races.

Or you could compare it with Maddison Grant's The Passing of the Great Race for maximum Evilness.

I already quoted it upthread. I like to keep things fresh.

*Not ideas about race but the external physical features.

 

[Bedrockgames]

But, failing to re-examine is pointedly *not* thinking.

You posed the question of, "Is this a problem for the broader culture?"

How many complaints do you need to get before your answer to the question becomes, "Yes"? Purely statistically, you should accept that accumulated complaints eventually constitute data, rather than isolated personal anecdotes. How many people have to report pain in their feet before you accept that toes are, in fact, getting stepped on?

So long as you are looking at, and dismissing, complaints individually, you are apt to fail to see the pattern. Moreso if you have an emotional interest in *not* accepting it as an issue for the broader culture. Those of us with privilege generally have such an interest, because not accepting it as an issue means we get to ignore it and not take action. If we accept it as an issue, then morally and ethically we really ought to *do* something about it, and perhaps recognize our own small part in the issue, which would be uncomfortable.

I see a lot of different reactions to these kinds of tropes Umbran I don't think the reaction among people affected by this stuff is as one sided as you think. And again, all we know about people in this thread, beyond what they volunteer, is their screen name. We don't know peoples identities unless they give them, what their circumstances are, and how much they've suffered. And I think there is a danger in what you are advocating because you can start to infantilize people based on what group they belong (and also a danger that you ignore the experiences of other people because you think they have privilege in the discussion). I don't think I need to treat anyone with kid gloves. I do think I need to be respectful though. And I do think we have weigh things when they are relevant (like if an african american person tells me they are bothered by orcs, I am going to listen to them----I am simply saying if I've already talked to 100 people affected by the trope, I am not going to re-evaluate all of the evidence once again (which we've seen is a pretty big undertaken) because of one new voice, but very similar complaint).

 

[S'mon]

I don't doubt this. But there are better and worse reactions we can have to things. It is one thing if a person sees a trope, it is clearly racist and they react accordingly. but if they've been educated and trained to constantly search for any hint of racism, and then react profoundly when they see, I think that isn't a very healthy way to approach world

I do think it's sad when people have been educated to take offence where none was (edit) intended. Couple of my east-Asian friends were sharing a video a year or two back about how it's offensive to ask "Where are you from?" - the clueless well-meaning whites asking Asians & Asian-Americans about their national origin were being given as examples of unconscious racism. In discouraging communication I think that kind of thing is actively harmful.

Or, well, some of the things I've said in the past that offended you, Brendan, I didn't mean to
be offensive but I spoke (wrote) too casually, and didn't think about my likely readership.
For one thing British humour often doesn't translate well across the pond; for another, the written word tends to strip out nuance compared to speech. My initial reaction to your strongly stated offence has generally been "Why is he persecuting me?!" - but on reflection I should have put more weight on where you were likely coming from.

 

[S'mon]

I already quoted it upthread. I like to keep things fresh.

I was pretty shocked reading Stoddard that (as best I recall) there was pretty much nothing about superiority/inferiority, and that he saw the end of "White World Supremacy" as inevitable, and not particularly a bad thing. I could see why he didn't like the Nazis at all (and vice versa).

Whereas Maddison Grant comes across as pretty much a cartoon villain.