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Oh, I misunderstood. I thought you meant a sub-class that specifically has synergy with monk/druid multiclass. Reading comprehension problems, huh?
D&D 5E Monk, Way of Tooth and Claw
- Thread starter doctorbadwolf
- Start date
Oh, I misunderstood. I thought you meant a sub-class that specifically has synergy with monk/druid multiclass. Reading comprehension problems, huh?
doctorbadwolf
Heretic of The Seventh Circle
These things happen! I'm very curious what you think about the premise and goal of the thread, though!
A character that turns into other creatures (primarily animals) without losing their mental faculties and training, mechanically (and narratively, but the mechanical part is what makes Wild Shape the best fit, because it already just does the thing. A Monk/Druid can turn into a squirrel and make an unarmed attack with stunning strike, dealing monk die damage, and then move squirrel speed+monk speed bonus. That dynamic, of being able to turn into not just a squirrel or panther, but a kung fu squirrel or panther, is what I want. Filling out the concept is the idea of being able to bring that transformation back with you, into your born state, gaining gills, or even more enhanced speed, or heightened senses, or a climb speed, or whatever, and perhaps even do those things while in an animal form (fish bear land shark).
Pie in the sky, I'd like to be able to turn into a dryad or treant or similar, and/or an awakened tree. I do want it to be weirder than a Druid, but be thematically Druidic in nature. They're like rangers, in that they are part of Groves, allies to the Druids, training with them without being fully initiated into the Druidic Circle.
I've no problem, for instance, with the Warlock getting Eldritch Smite. I'd have no problem with a Fighter that gets Sneak Attack, if the concept makes sense, simplifies a cool concept that would normally require multiclassing, and doesn't obviate the Rogue at the table.
I think we can say with utmost confidence that a fair amount of exploration and combat buffing fits into the monk subclass structure. I'm actually quite confident that Wild Shape and some spells, so long as Wild Shape isn't as good as a full level druid of the Moon, and it's not a large spell list of powerful spells, can fit in a monk subclass.
I'd entertain other options, like gaining a modified way to use Polymorph, for instance. But, making Polymorph balanced with not losing access to your race and class features seems like...you'd just end up with Wild Shape.
I don't really think I'd enjoy or be interested in an option that is just "you can gain X of YZAB list of traits, change your size, etc". To me, simply becoming a cat is much simpler, and more interesting and satisfying, than that.
Oh, also...I'd love to figure out a way to change shapes as part of attacking, and make that matter and be cool? I haven't landed on anything yet, though. Like, I picture parkouring over a low wall, launching yourself at a foe, and turning into a bear mid-leap, crashing into them with that heavy weight, etc.
Hawk Diesel
Adventurer
Well, as I said before, I think it's important to be upfront with my bias towards Wildshape and granting other classes iconic class abilities via archetype. That said, I do think it is an interesting challenge to design a mechanically balanced Monk archetype around this feature, so I'll give it a shot. For comparison sake, I am going to only try and use the PHB as my reference for balance. Looking at the initial entry into a monk archetype, they primarily grant new ways to use Ki points. Open Hand monks get new options that go along with Flurry, Shadow monks get a cantrip and a number of specific, thematic 2nd level spells that cost Ki points, and Elemental Monks get to choose 2 spell-like abilities that cost Ki points. [EDIT: After the first level of the archetype, I stopped comparing to the core PHB monks.] I think it is also important that we try not to step on the toes of the druid too much. So I feel like wildshape-like abilities will be the entirety of the 3rd level archetype ability, will use Ki points, and also will be more time limited. Additionally, there is the problem that if you base the wild shape ability off of Ki points, a monk will be able to use wildshape more often than a druid. This can lead to a problem with the monk having a ridiculous pool of hit points, which is not truly a druid problem until they hit their level 20 capstone ability. So these things are worth considering. Anyways, here's a really... really rough attempt for your monk subclass.
Way of Tooth and Claw
Wild Shape
Starting at 2nd level, you can use your bonus action to magically assume the shape of a beast that you have seen before. When you choose to use this ability, you can spend one ki point to change into a small beast of CR ¼ or lower. If you spend 2 ki points, you can select a small or medium beast up to CR ½. The form that you select cannot have a swim or fly speed.
You can stay in a beast shape for one minute. You then revert to your normal form unless you expend more ki points for use of this feature. You can revert to your normal form earlier by using a bonus action on your turn. You automatically revert if you fall unconscious, drop to 0 hit points, or die.
While you are transformed, the following rules apply:
• Your game statistics are replaced by the statistics of the beast, but you retain your alignment, personality, and Intelligence, Wisdom, and Charisma scores. You also retain all of your skill and saving throw proficiencies, in addition to gaining those of the creature. If the creature has the same proficiency as you and the bonus in its stat block is higher than yours, use the creature’s bonus instead of yours. If the creature has any legendary or lair actions, you can't use them.
• When you transform, you assume the beast’s hit points and Hit Dice. When you revert to your normal form, you return to the number of hit points you had before you transformed. However, if you revert as a result of dropping to 0 hit points, any excess damage carries over to your normal form. For example, if you take 10 damage in animal form and have only 1 hit point left, you revert and take 9 damage. As long as the excess damage doesn’t reduce your normal form to 0 hit points, you aren’t knocked unconscious.
• You can’t cast spells, and your ability to speak or take any action that requires hands is limited to the capabilities of your beast form. Transforming doesn’t break your concentration on a spell you’ve already cast, however, or prevent you from taking actions that are part of a spell, such as call lightning, that you’ve already cast.
• You retain the benefit of any features from your class, race, or other source and can use them if the new form is physically capable of doing so. However, you can’t use any of your special senses, such as darkvision, unless your new form also has that sense.
• You choose whether your equipment falls to the ground in your space, merges into your new form, or is worn by it. Worn equipment functions as normal, but the DM decides whether it is practical for the new form to wear a piece of equipment, based on the creature’s shape and size. Your equipment doesn’t change size or shape to match the new form, and any equipment that the new form can’t wear must either fall to the ground or merge with it. Equipment that merges with the form has no effect until you leave the form.
Improved Wild Shape
Beginning at level 6, you can now choose a beast form that has a swim speed.
In addition, you can use your ki to duplicate the effects of the alter self spell. As an action, you can spend 2 ki points to alter self without providing material components.
Elemental Wild Shape
Beginning at 11th level, you can now choose a beast form that has a fly speed. Adopting a beast form with a fly speed increases the normal ki point cost by 1.
In addition, you have learned to charge your unarmed and natural attacks with elemental power. As a bonus action that costs 2 ki points, you can choose acid, cold, fire, lightning, or poison. For the next minute, all your attacks deal an additional 1d4 damage of the energy type chosen.
Reactive Wild Shape
Beginning at 17th level, you can now choose to spend 4 ki points to wild shape into a large beast up to CR 1.
If you are in your normal form and you would take damage from an attack you can see, you can use your reaction to use your Wild Shape. You still must pay the normal Ki point cost for the beast form you assume.
Way of Tooth and Claw
Wild Shape
Starting at 2nd level, you can use your bonus action to magically assume the shape of a beast that you have seen before. When you choose to use this ability, you can spend one ki point to change into a small beast of CR ¼ or lower. If you spend 2 ki points, you can select a small or medium beast up to CR ½. The form that you select cannot have a swim or fly speed.
You can stay in a beast shape for one minute. You then revert to your normal form unless you expend more ki points for use of this feature. You can revert to your normal form earlier by using a bonus action on your turn. You automatically revert if you fall unconscious, drop to 0 hit points, or die.
While you are transformed, the following rules apply:
• Your game statistics are replaced by the statistics of the beast, but you retain your alignment, personality, and Intelligence, Wisdom, and Charisma scores. You also retain all of your skill and saving throw proficiencies, in addition to gaining those of the creature. If the creature has the same proficiency as you and the bonus in its stat block is higher than yours, use the creature’s bonus instead of yours. If the creature has any legendary or lair actions, you can't use them.
• When you transform, you assume the beast’s hit points and Hit Dice. When you revert to your normal form, you return to the number of hit points you had before you transformed. However, if you revert as a result of dropping to 0 hit points, any excess damage carries over to your normal form. For example, if you take 10 damage in animal form and have only 1 hit point left, you revert and take 9 damage. As long as the excess damage doesn’t reduce your normal form to 0 hit points, you aren’t knocked unconscious.
• You can’t cast spells, and your ability to speak or take any action that requires hands is limited to the capabilities of your beast form. Transforming doesn’t break your concentration on a spell you’ve already cast, however, or prevent you from taking actions that are part of a spell, such as call lightning, that you’ve already cast.
• You retain the benefit of any features from your class, race, or other source and can use them if the new form is physically capable of doing so. However, you can’t use any of your special senses, such as darkvision, unless your new form also has that sense.
• You choose whether your equipment falls to the ground in your space, merges into your new form, or is worn by it. Worn equipment functions as normal, but the DM decides whether it is practical for the new form to wear a piece of equipment, based on the creature’s shape and size. Your equipment doesn’t change size or shape to match the new form, and any equipment that the new form can’t wear must either fall to the ground or merge with it. Equipment that merges with the form has no effect until you leave the form.
Improved Wild Shape
Beginning at level 6, you can now choose a beast form that has a swim speed.
In addition, you can use your ki to duplicate the effects of the alter self spell. As an action, you can spend 2 ki points to alter self without providing material components.
Elemental Wild Shape
Beginning at 11th level, you can now choose a beast form that has a fly speed. Adopting a beast form with a fly speed increases the normal ki point cost by 1.
In addition, you have learned to charge your unarmed and natural attacks with elemental power. As a bonus action that costs 2 ki points, you can choose acid, cold, fire, lightning, or poison. For the next minute, all your attacks deal an additional 1d4 damage of the energy type chosen.
Reactive Wild Shape
Beginning at 17th level, you can now choose to spend 4 ki points to wild shape into a large beast up to CR 1.
If you are in your normal form and you would take damage from an attack you can see, you can use your reaction to use your Wild Shape. You still must pay the normal Ki point cost for the beast form you assume.
doctorbadwolf
Heretic of The Seventh Circle
Thats really fun. I would say that it needs some amount of benefit that doesn’t require ki expenditure, or adds to a current use of Ki, to fit the other subclasses. This is one reason ppl don’t like 4 elements monks, for instance. (According to Mearls)
edit: I don’t think that gaining better forms needs to cost more ki, tbh. Especially not fly speed.
I’d probably also add Alter Self and Speak With Animals 1/day each at no ki cost at level 3, especially if it’s more ki to do a higher CR critter and it only lasts 1 minute.
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Flamestrike
Legend
How on earth are you doing martial arts katas learnt as a Human... as a Wolf?
How is the physcial form of a Wolf, capable of doing what a Human can?
How? How is a Wolf deflecting arrows, or delivering a snap kick, grappling something (other than with a bite), or even simply punching someone?
Like... if Jackie Chan was somehow turned into a Wolf, how on earth is the Wolf blocking attacks, executing katas and so forth? None of the martial arts he's learnt (as a human) in any way translates into a Wolfs physiolgy.
doctorbadwolf
Heretic of The Seventh Circle
I say the following with no negative feeling or intention.
This is completely irrelevant to the thread. I do not care about this sort of objection.
Its a magical martial artist that can run up sheets of rain at level 9, and do other weird
before then, magically turning into a bear via Druidic magics that don’t care at all about mass and energy, and already allow a Druid to retain their full intelligence even though a mouse literally isn’t physically capable of the same thought processes. “How does a wolf do katas” is, to me, a completely absurd question.
If you were asking simply for flavor, to better understand what is happening at the table, I’d posit that the Druidic magic bridges the gaps in understanding as it creates the animal body for you, including physiology that can process your normal thoughts, and all the synaptic pathways that make up trained implicit memory (muscle memory).
Or, a different character might be described as having trained in various animals forms as well as humanoid form. This Monk/Druid might represent a tradition that the character has trained in for years, but that the game understandably didn’t build a whole class for. (MC doesn’t have to represent combining disparate traditions in game. It can simply represent a tradition that has no direct mechanical rep already in the game)
Or, a Monk/Druid might represent a character whose monk abilities are as much instinct as training, like a force user in Star Wars.
edit: also, dogs can punch pretty hard. And halflings and Goliaths punch the same amount.
Cap'n Kobold
Hero
I'm not sure that Wild Shape is the best way of representing this. - It has a lot of baggage such as the extra HP of the creature which take up a significant amount of the power available to balance the archetype, but aren't really something that you're interested in.
It strikes me that this archetype's niche among the monk subclasses is its versatility - Less combat power than open-hand, less mobility and skulduggery than shadow etc.
Do you see a monk of this school as turning into a bear at the beginning of a fight and fighting in that form for the duration of the fight, or do you see it as flowing between forms on a round-by-round (or even more often) basis?
Stormonu
Legend
I think this is a wonderful idea, as many martial art "forms" are taken from animals - Tiger, Turtle, Monkey, Crane, Dragon, etc. Actually being able to become the animal you derived your form from seems like an interesting subclass for Monk. Perhaps limit the Wild Shape form (with a CR max still in place) to one particular shape at low levels (2-4?), two at medium levels (5-8?), three specific forms at higher levels (9-12?) and four forms at greater levels (13+), opening some supernatural options up at higher levels that a typical druid might not have access to - classic elementals, perhaps ki-rins and maybe a capstone form of an actual (oriental) dragon perhaps?
doctorbadwolf
Heretic of The Seventh Circle
If I had to choose between “flowing from form to form” and “actually being that animal with the monk’s mind and training”, I’ll choose being the animal.
If there is a way to do both, even better.
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