How do YOU handle a Fastball Special, and other team manuevers?

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Guest 6801328

Guest
As I suggested with my 3rd point, I think it comes down to how you perceive your game. If this were a forum about superhero games I wouldn't blink, but I think I just have a different aesthetic preference in my D&D (and other fantasy RPGs). Which is why I was saying that if this is how you want to play, I'd stop worrying about the physics and just pick a rule that is simple to use and doesn't feel too unbalancing.

But hey, my mind is still reeling...

Then I guess my work here is complete.
 

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Greg K

Legend
No one would blink an eye if we were discussing this using a spell like telekinesis. But substitute a spell for a fantasy-level strongman, and suddenly the whole game seems to crumble.

Or it just fits with the swords and magic fantasy that I prefer (although I also reduce a lot of magic when I run D&D). If I want fastball specials and certain other things, I will run another genre such as supers (my favorite), but I will also be using another system.
 
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SkidAce

Legend
Supporter
Not terribly concerned if the distance is exciting or not. One human (even a 20 STR strong-man) throwing another human being 30ft is complete absurdity on it's face in 5E in my book, throwing any further than that is the sort of insanity that belongs in places like 3.5 or a supers game.

For an understanding of your perspective, how do you feel about monks doing "wuxia" style jumps and movements over say, rooftops?
 

SkidAce

Legend
Supporter
Sadly, not entirely. I'm originally an MTG player. I get a lot of players coming over from that. We're math-nerds by nature. Much of D&D is just numbers and rules to us. But I am working on it. Training players to overlay their numbers with a healthy layer of role play takes time.

As a funny tangent, I get this.

We came from the other direction, DnD > MtG. You should see our "themed" decks and roleplaying(slight) the MtG games.

Not as effective as they could be sometimes, but we enjoy the game.
 

doctorbadwolf

Heretic of The Seventh Circle
That guy throwing the 130lb due is not throwing him as a fastball special. The guy being thrown is wearing a harness. The thrower is grabbing him by one strap at the shoulders and another strap near the butt or crotch. The thrower has to spin his body to build up momentum before throwing the guy. The guy thrown spins horizontally and uncontrollably a couple of times before hitting the ground and bounces.

As for the 52lb world record that someone mentioned from the Highland Games, that was a kettle ball being thrown which is smaller and more aerodynamic than a person. Again, the guy did not throw like a baseball or football, he grabbed it by the handle and had to spin around (if I recall correctly, two or three times) to build up momentum before releasing it. If throwing a person, I think you are going to get the same kind of spin as with the guy 130lb guy.
Finally, to do a fastball special, I see the same issue that someone else had stated (I think it was Elfcrusher).

I never said anything about how a character is being thrown. Nor did I propose throwing people as far as a weight can be thrown.

As I suggested with my 3rd point, I think it comes down to how you perceive your game. If this were a forum about superhero games I wouldn't blink, but I think I just have a different aesthetic preference in my D&D (and other fantasy RPGs). Which is why I was saying that if this is how you want to play, I'd stop worrying about the physics and just pick a rule that is simple to use and doesn't feel too unbalancing.

It’s weird to me how hard some of y’all focus on the “fastball special” name, and insist on focusing on comic books.

Anyway, I’m not interested in gonzo dnd, so I’ll go ahead and keep using physics as a guidepost for how things should work, along with general player and DM expectations, balance, simplicity, and narrative needs of the game.
 

G

Guest 6801328

Guest
It’s weird to me how hard some of y’all focus on the “fastball special” name, and insist on focusing on comic books.

Yeah, it's totally bizarre isn't it? I mean, it's not like you used an iconic gonzo action from a famous comic book in the freakin' title. Or then said anything in your first post, and most certainly not in the very first line, to reinforce that perception. And yet, somehow that theme keeps rearing its ugly head.

It's just...weird.

EDIT: By the way, if you really want to use physics, if you throw somebody 30 feet, assuming perfect conditions (i.e., 45 degree launch angle) they are going to land at just over 20 miles an hour. Do with that what you will.

If you happen to be curious how much force would be required to accelerate a 135 lb. person to 21 miles an hour over an arms length, let me know. I bet it's a fun number.
 
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doctorbadwolf

Heretic of The Seventh Circle
Yeah, it's totally bizarre isn't it? I mean, it's not like you used an iconic gonzo action from a famous comic book in the freakin' title. Or then said anything in your first post, and most certainly not in the very first line, to reinforce that perception. And yet, somehow that theme keeps rearing its ugly head.

It's just...weird.

EDIT: By the way, if you really want to use physics, if you throw somebody 30 feet, assuming perfect conditions (i.e., 45 degree launch angle) they are going to land at just over 20 miles an hour. Do with that what you will.

If you happen to be curious how much force would be required to accelerate a 135 lb. person to 21 miles an hour over an arms length, let me know. I bet it's a fun number.

I was very clear on the expectations of the thread in the OP. Not on me if you read the title and skimmed the rest.

it's also funny to me that you think that referencing physics at all requires being beholden to it entirely. It's not binary, my dude. You know what a guidepost is, yeah? Like...metaphorically? You know it's not a rule, right?

But looking back at your last post replying to me, before this one, I suspect that you came into this thread to participate in bad faith from the start.
 

G

Guest 6801328

Guest
But looking back at your last post replying to me, before this one, I suspect that you came into this thread to participate in bad faith from the start.

Not bad faith, but I wanted to express my opinion, which is that I find this a little too gonzo for my tastes, but for those who feel otherwise my recommendation would be to keep it simple. Maybe I shouldn't have used the word "ridiculous" ("gonzo" is a better choice) but overall I tried to express my opinions respectfully.

I should know by now that you never handle it well when somebody comes into one of your threads and disagrees with the premise.

EDIT:
Oh, I see, you're referring to the "I guess my work here is complete." No, I was just trying to respond with humor...instead of rising to the bait...of you trying to mock me for my preferences/perceptions about magic vs. martial might.

I can't find the place where I said that the human toss is equivalently fantastic to a fly spell. You made up that particular red herring, and then denigrated it. (Thanks for that.)
 
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G

Guest 6801328

Guest
Technically, a character with 15 strength can take 225 lbs, lift it over their head, and move at a normal speed, walk up stairs, ect. At my strongest as a collegiate athlete, I could military press 275 lbs, but I couldn't hold it up for more than a few seconds, let alone casually move around while holding up all that weight without hurting myself. Even professional bodybuilders and strongmen would be hard pressed to hold that much weight over their head and move around for long, and even then it would be with limited mobility and still a high risk of injury.

So I think it is reasonable to think that a character with 15 strength is quite a bit stronger than even most professional strongman competitors. Just because this level of strength is common among PCs does not mean it is analogous to being common compared to a real world average. This is a sampling bias. It would be like averaging the lifting ability of only Olympic power lifters, and assuming this average applies to everyone. What is average within one group can be exceptional within a larger group.

I had to look this up to confirm. I can't find anything in 5e that says you can military press this weight, just that it's the threshold for encumbrance. Unless you assume that "lift" means "military press".
 

Hawk Diesel

Adventurer
I had to look this up to confirm. I can't find anything in 5e that says you can military press this weight, just that it's the threshold for encumbrance. Unless you assume that "lift" means "military press".

Player's Handbook said:
Lifting and Carrying
Your Strength score determines the amount of weight you can bear. The following terms define what you can lift or carry.Carrying Capacity. Your carrying capacity is your Strength score multiplied by 15. This is the weight (in pounds) that you can carry, which is high enough that most characters don’t usually have to worry about it.

Push, Drag, or Lift.
You can push, drag, or lift a weight in pounds up to twice your carrying capacity (or 30 times your Strength score). While pushing or dragging weight in excess of your carrying capacity, your speed drops to 5 feet.

Size and Strength.
Larger creatures can bear more weight, whereas Tiny creatures can carry less. For each size category above Medium, double the creature’s carrying capacity and the amount it can push, drag, or lift. For a Tiny creature, halve these weights.

[MENTION=6801328]Elfcrusher[/MENTION] - Edit: Sorry, you edited your post. But the rules are vague about lifting. Also long as it is under your carrying capacity, the rules are (I suspect) purposely vague. But theoretically, a character could lift their carrying capacity without problem over their head or any penalty to movement.

In Game of Thrones (Fantasy Genre) we see the giant Wun Wun
-Smash a dude against a brick wall
-Knock out a horse and send it flying 10ft back with a single punch
-Casually grab and toss a phalanx soldier 20ft+ into the air.

Mechanically, Wun Wun could be described as a Goliath Barbarian under the effects of an Enlarge spell. If we assume an 18 Strength (easily achievable by level 4 with Standard Array), this would make the player capable of carrying of 1,080. Push, Drag, and Lift is 2,160. If we assume that the Goliath also took a potion of Hill Giant Strength (Uncommon potion, increases strength to 21), then carrying capacity is 1,260 lbs and Push, Drag, Lift is 2,520.

For perspective, median height of a Goliath is 7'1". According to Volo's, this would put the Goliath in a median weight of 277 lbs. However, real world comparisons of strongmen (what seem to be the closest real world analogs to barbarians) of similar height to a goliath mean a more realistic weight would be in the range of 350 - 400 lbs. Sean O'Hagan is 6'11" weighing 440 lbs, Hafthor Bjornsson is 6'9" and weighs between 397 - 441). A Goliath under the effects of an enlarge spell would 14'2" tall and weigh between 2,800 - 3,200 lbs.

An Olympic Shot Putter can throw a 16 lbs metal sphere about 60'. The hammer throw (16 lbs sphere on a chain) is around 260'. If a common weight for these athletes is around 250 lbs, this is an object weight about 6% of their body weight. For an enlaged Goliath Barbarian, 6% of their body weight ranges from 168 lbs - 192 lbs. Assuming equivalent strength ratios, an Enlarged Goliath Barbarian can throw an average sized human nearly as far as Olympic athletes can throw a shot put or a hammer. Of course, a shot put and hammer are perfect instruments for throwing and thus ideal for that purpose. However, even if we half those distances, an Enlarged Goliath Barbarian could throw a full grown man 30ft, or 130' if there is a harness that the player could grab onto.

So what I'm saying is that while not just anyone could throw a person in D&D, it is not outside the realm of possibility either, nor does it require a Genre change to imagine.
 
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