Hit Points and Constitution damage System

DND_Reborn · Apr 18, 2019

Hi all,

So sparked by some other threads about hit points and such, and much of my own reflection on other systems, I am going to pitch this idea:

Hit points function as normal. They heal normally, spells, etc. Nothing changes.

However, instead of going unconscious at 0 hit points, I am suggesting the following:

1. When your hit points are reduced to 0 or less, you are fatigued (staggered, whatever...) and might fall unconscious (as per Spell Concentration check rules) whenever you take further damage. While fatigued, you suffer disadvantage on all attack rolls, skill checks, (and saving throws???).

2. The extra dice rolled for a critical hit are rolled separately and applied directly to your Constitution score. Normal damage is applied to your hit points.

3. Additional damage is applied directly against your Constitution score, which is reduced by an amount equal to the damage taken. If your Constitution score is reduced to 0, you automatically fall unconscious and are dying, needing to make death saves (successes and failures off-set until three successes or three failures are reached) to stabilize and avoid death. As your Constitution score is reduced, making Constitution saving throws becomes harder and harder when it falls below 10 and penalties apply.

4. You recover Constitution through rest (one day restores one point). Magic restores one point per spell level of the spell used to heal. So a 1st-level Cure Wounds would restore a single point, while the same spell cast with a 4th-level slot would restore 4 points. Potions cannot restore Constitution.

5. Until your Constitution score is fully recovered, you remain fatigued and must still check to remain conscious when you suffer damage, even if you have full hit points.

Obviously, this kind of system will not be to everyone's liking. That isn't my point. I wanted Constitution to actually more represent the "meat" part of hit points and now represent your last stand kind of thing. Once you are into losing your Constitution, things are meant to get more scary.

NOTE: your maximum hit points will not be affected by the temporary loss of Constitution score. Also, I might not have your modifier change either.

We need to discuss this at our table, but before we do I wanted so see what feedback others might have before I pitch it to our group. Thanks!

robus · Apr 18, 2019

It does seem a bit fiddly, but connecting constitution and HP is, of course, correct, as HP increases are tied to your Con.

But at higher levels any critical is going to blow away all your Con, so PCs are going to suffer more fainting fits than they would at lower levels so that seems wrong, or perhaps I’m not understanding what you mean by applying critical damage to your Con score?

How about this as an alternative to handling crits? Each crit you receive gives you one wound level (as in the wounds pdf) The damage from the crit still reduces your HP as normal but also gives you a wound. Now you could also give the PC a chance to not take the wound by giving them some kind of Con saving throw where they try to escape the wound (getting just a scratch instead)?

5ekyu · Apr 18, 2019

If you want simpler...

Once you reach zero hp, you are still up but are exposed.

Any hit on an exposed character gives it a failed death save.
Any cure on an exposed character removes a failed death save (per level maybe) or cures them up from exposed to hp if the have none.

A character dies when he has accumulated failed death saves above Con bonus plus tier.

Rest will not cure death saves, only magical healing will.

Ratskinner · Apr 19, 2019

My last time DMing I adopted a system that went like this:

1) HP are simply your ability and will to keep fighting. While you are at 0 HP, you cannot make Attack Actions, cast spells that require saves or attack rolls, or perform Reactions that make an attack. If you are conscious, you will seek to leave the battle or huddle in cover.

2) When you are reduced to 0 HP, or take damage while at 0 HP, roll 4 dice for odds or evens (or flip 4 coins). Call what's good for you. Use the results to answer the following questions:
a) Are you conscious?
b) Are you dying?
c) Did you lose something important? (A hand, an item, your backpack.)
d) Who narrates these results, you or the GM?

3) Each time you are reduced to 0 HP, you must choose a trauma which represents the lasting physical or emotional changes to your character. I had a list of things like becoming Reckless, gaining a phobia, etc. You can gain Inspiration for playing up your traumas. When you get your 4th trauma, your character has had enough and retires.

It added quite a bit of interest to the game, while letting me push them a lot harder in combat, because it reduced the effective lethality of 0 HP.

Charlaquin · Apr 19, 2019

dnd4vr said:
When your hit points are reduced to 0 or less, you are fatigued (staggered, whatever...) and might fall unconscious (as per Spell Concentration check rules) whenever you take further damage. While fatigued, you suffer disadvantage on all attack rolls, skill checks, (and saving throws???).

So, I have employed almost this exact house rule. In my version, at 0 HP you remain conscious as long as you maintain concentration (as if concentrating on a spell), you had disadvantage on attack rolls, and your exhaustion level was treated as 1 higher (this insured you would at least have disadvantage on ability checks, and might have more penalties if you already had one or more exhaustion level). And you were considered dying, so any damage you took would lead to failed death saving throws, as well as forcing you to make a Constitution save to maintain your concentration.

I loved this in theory, but in practice, it was never utilized. The first time one of my players dropped to 0 with this house rule in play, they immediately got hit by a goblin, passed his Con save, but took a failed death save for the hit. He said, “do I have to keep concentrating?” I told him no, so he dropped concentration so as not to present an active target. After that, everyone always dropped concentration immediately after falling to 0, and it was as if the house rule didn’t exist.

I think if I were to try this house rule again, I’d change it so a conscious character with 0 hp was not considered dying, and taking a hit would only force a concentration save (and of course present a greater risk of death by massive damage.)

As for the critical hits dealing damage to a separate pool equal to the character’s Con score... Too much bookkeeping for me, but if you don’t mind the extra work, it’s not too bad an idea. The trouble is that the risk of instadeath by critical hit increases as you gain levels, which seems counter-intuitive. Maybe increase this pool by your Con mod every time you gain a level? I don’t think that would entirely solve the problem, but it might at least help mitigate it some.

If you haven’t read it, I recommend taking a look at the Angry GM’s Fighting Spirit hack. It accomplishes a lot of what you’re trying to do here. I haven’t tested it (again, the extra book keeping isn’t worth it for me personally), but it might suit your needs well, or at least give you some ideas. It’s where I got the disadvantage on attack rolls and +1 fictional exhaustion level idea from.

DND_Reborn · Apr 19, 2019

I remember you posting something a short while ago about this as well. I've revised things quite a bit and maybe you will like it.

Wounding:

Whenever you suffer a critical hit or you take damage that reduces your HP to 0 or less, you suffer one wound. While you are at 0 HP and take more damage, you receive another wound for each die of damage. Each wound imposes a -1 penalty on attacks and skill checks until removed and you cannot take a bonus action and action in the same turn. When you receive a wound you must make a Constitution save similar to a Spell Concentration check or fall unconscious.

If your wounds equal or exceed your Constitution score, you are unconscious, dying, and need to make death saves (even if you have HP remaining). While making death saves, each additional wound you take counts as an automatic failure.

If you have HP and are hit with a critical hit, you take damage to your HP as normal and also suffer one wound. Unless your HP are 0, you do not suffer more than one wound on a critical hit. However, if your HP are 0 and you are hit with a critical hit, the effects can be devastating as you will suffer one wound for each die of damage!

Taking a critical hit while wounded can also result in a permanent injury (losing an eye or ear, hand, arm, or leg) at the DM’s discretion.

You recover one wound per long rest. Magic restores one point per spell slot level used or level of healing for potions.

That's it for now, I'll work more on it this weekend and check out Angry GM's page then.

robus · Apr 19, 2019

That looks a lot more workable IMHO.

dnd4vr said:
If your wounds equal or exceed your Constitution score, you are unconscious, dying, and need to make death saves (even if you have HP remaining). While making death saves, each additional wound you take counts as an automatic failure.

When you say score here do you mean total Con score or bonus? I imagine bonus because otherwise we're talking Monty Python levels of mere flesh wounds?

Blue · Apr 19, 2019

dnd4vr said:
NOTE: your maximum hit points will not be affected by the temporary loss of Constitution score. Also, I might not have your modifier change either.

This is an important difference for me. Back in 3.x I loved the concept of ability score damage, but the actual implementation was horrid. It adjusted so many "math bits" that were already worked out on your character sheet. And things like rolling HPs where you can't get less than 1 even with a CON penalty means you needed to record all rolls to be able to work out new HP max when suddenly at penalty CON.

So if it's actually CON, which has a bunch of ripple effects, or if it's in actuality a completely new score that is equal to your CON is a big deal.

DND_Reborn · Apr 19, 2019

robus said:
That looks a lot more workable IMHO.

When you say score here do you mean total Con score or bonus? I imagine bonus because otherwise we're talking Monty Python levels of mere flesh wounds?

I thought it looked more workable to, but we'll have to see when we playtest it (if it comes to that).

I was actually thinking Con score, not bonus. Because you have to make a Con save for every wound, most characters will fall unconscious after 4-5 wounds I would think but I haven't done the math on it yet. If it turns out to be the "mere flesh wound" scenario, we'll rethink it. Maybe 5 plus Con mod? So, most characters would range from 5-8 or so. That would mirror closely to the levels of exhaustion, but that isn't my goal.

Blue · Apr 19, 2019

dnd4vr said:
2. The extra dice rolled for a critical hit are rolled separately and applied directly to your Constitution score. Normal damage is applied to your hit points.

This worries me several ways.

First, it means that spells, traps, and other hazards with saves can't do this, but weapon attacks and spells attacks can. Seems somewhat arbitrary.

Second, it means auto death when just about any high CR creature rolls a crit. A CR 5 Hill Giant will be doing 3d8 CON damage on a crit. It gets two attacks a round, so it would have about a 9.75% chance to crit once and a 0.25% to crit twice, with an average of 13.5 CON damage each time.

Third, If a monster gets taken out by this, woo - but who cares in the long run. Monsters are most likely there to be defeated. PCs though will suddenly have a lot more deaths, especially since (a) there's a death spiral with 0 CON you are making all your death saves at -5, and (b) the slow recovery rate (both healing and long rest) means it's likely not the first CON damage characters are suffering under in the course of an adventure.

Fourth, this really impacts front liners a lot more, because they are the target of more attacks and the chance to crit can not be affected in any way by what they do. So a certain class of characters will be more disadvantaged by this. Even if they don't die, they will have ongoing penalties from fatigue.

Suggestion to fix these issues:

Failed 1 on save also does this.
Use a separate value than CON so it doesn't death spiral your death saves. May want to increase it by level to offset increase in monster damage. (Or give DR equal to proficiency for this damage only.)
Since this nerfs front liners a lot more than others, give them increase ability to resist. Perhaps armor removes one die of CON damage per tier (light/medium/heavy), and Unarmored Defense removes a straight two dice. Or put back in rolling to confirm crits so high AC will help reduce them.