If there's one game where stat differences are justified, what game would that be?

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Gradine

The Elephant in the Room (she/they)
I'm not making that claim without evidence (although you've slightly altered my claim). You realize that they do play exhibition games against U15 and U17 teams, and that most of the time they do lose? Most of the time these games aren't highly publicized, but I'm sure you'll be able to find the case where they lost to FC Dallas's U15 boys team 5-2, for example.

And I'm sure that they're putting their best effort in to these exhibition matches against teenagers :p

Are you in fact offended by reality?

Obviously I am not. I only suggest that when many people claim to be advancing "reality" they are editorializing more than they would care to admit. I'm not innocent of this myself, mind you. The sureness of one's beliefs is human nature, after all.

I have no idea what that means.

I was referring obliquely to the way our current major athletic structures are failing gender non-conforming and trans athletes. I should have been more clear on that point.

No, because I have specifically argued against reductivism, noting for example that there is nothing unrealistic about having a woman much stronger, faster, or in all ways more athletic than myself. Thus, I have fully endorsed the position that only knowing the sex of the person, we can't know which is the more athletic, and I will fully endorse it again.

So what are we arguing about, then?

As far as the claim of reductivism goes, I can't help but feel you in particular are now projecting, since I know for a fact that when I've argued that knowing only some quality of a person we can't know some other quality because people's individuality was greater than the collection of groups that they'd been categorized in, you've rejected that when it suited you.

Now I'm afraid you're the one making oblique references that I'm not following.

Nor in my outline of anything have I suggested that the outcome of this chargen process must be a stereotype. For example, we could have a chargen process where you rolled a random number and were then assigned a person of the chosen sex from the pool of all the world's females. The character would then be based off a real person, and since real people are almost always more than stereotypes, any claim that the chargen process produced a stereotype would be provably false. You would never know what sort of person you'd end up with, and any attempt to guess based on the 'average person' would probably be a stereotype. I have certainly not argued for or acted like "truths are universal" as you put it, and by making that claim so in opposition to what you are actually responding to, I can only feel we are talking past each other.

Yeah, I'm pretty sure that we having nothing to actually disagree about here. I'll admit that I was not replying to you in argument of your whole post, so much as I was using that piece of your post as a jumping off point to demonstrate the difference between "realism" and "reductivism", and how some on this thread (though apparently not you) tend to conflate the two, and then further try to argue that such "realism" should be reflected in RPG game mechanics. Which, you know, is the whole point of this thread.

I think that I actually was, quite literally, talking past you. My apologies for the confusion.
 

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acpitz 1

Banned
Banned
This post was erased because reported by someone who seems to think that someone is spreading "literal garbage" all over the internet ...

But content was something along the lines ...

Let the "tranphobic" Walt Heyer formely know as Laura Jensen formely know as Walt Heyer explain something about the transgender.

ADDED CONTENT: He should know. He went from man to woman and back to man ... and explains here why/what/etc.

[video=youtube;qlRkLtKqSrY]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qlRkLtKqSrY[/video]
 
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Celebrim

Legend
And I'm sure that they're putting their best effort in to these exhibition matches against teenagers :p

Wait... what? You claim to not be offended by reality, but yet this is your response? In addition to the club teams, they regularly hold practice games against the US Boys U-15 squad and the US Boys U-17 squads. They did this for the longest time because there were few to no women's teams that could really push them, so this was a convenient solution that helped both teams. Yet, as would hardly be surprising, their record against the best U-15 and U-17 squads the country can assemble is more dismal than it is against random U15 club teams. They almost never beat the boys, and they to my knowledge never beat the U-17 men. Generally they lose by 6 or more goals, and while it is a friendly match, given the size and strength disparities and the social taboo of hurting a woman I doubt it is the U-17 men that are holding the least back if either side is in fact holding back. But the point is that you conjecture (or mine for that matter) is irrelevant. The point is that as fantastic as it is to watch the USWNT play, and as far superior in their play than I ever was as a player, they are not at all capable of competing in competition in the sport with biological males.

I assume since you are disputing me in this matter, you watched all the U-17 games in the recent U-17 CONCACAF tournament? You are a deeply devoted soccer fan right? You are in fact arguing from a position of knowledge and expertise in the subject, or are you arguing from a position of ignorance in the matter? Where does your confidence that my claims don't match reality come from?

I only suggest that when many people claim to be advancing "reality" they are editorializing more than they would care to admit.

Sure. I've seen the soccer argument advanced to claim male superiority, but I think it's very clear that I'm not doing so. The ability to play soccer is not the judge of the worth of a person, and if it was then I'd be worth less than Alex Morgan. Nor am I arguing for intangible superiority. I'm just saying that in reality men and women are very different, and defining the equality based on capability (as if a person with less IQ than me is worth less than me, for example) is wrongheaded.

I was referring obliquely to the way our current major athletic structures are failing gender non-conforming and trans athletes. I should have been more clear on that point.

Ok, I'd prefer to not add a bunch of other controversial topics to what is already a sufficiently controversial thread. I will just say that we both agree that sex and gender are not the same thing (though I think we probably do disagree on what they are), and further I think we both agree that the division between men and women in athletics was intended to be a division based on biological sex and not gender, precisely to foster competition and athleticism in biological females that would otherwise lack a proper competitive showcase for their abilities. If you don't agree, ok, but that discussion probably better belongs in a different forum.

So what are we arguing about, then?

The topic introduced by the OP. So specifically, "Does there exist an RPG where mechanical differences between men and women would be justified?" Or, as I rephrased it to be what I think is clearer, "Assume that there exists some game where sex is an early choice in the chargen process and it ultimately impacts in some fashion the character so that you get different results on average or in the extremes depending on which biological sex you took. Is this game justified or inherently immoral/unethical/wrong?" To that question I have appended a follow up question, "If you claim that there is no such game where the differences would be justified, is the basis of your claim that such a game would not be realistic?"
 
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Sacrosanct

Legend
snip video

You might want to do some research on your sources. There are a few things completely wrong about this.

1. Walt is not a scientist, health care professional, or in any way an expert on genetics.
2. Anecdotal evidence is not evidence. It's just his opinion. An opinion that isn't automatically correct. Especially since MR. Hayer also suffered from multiple personality disorder, which adds a huge layer of complexity to this entire issue.
3. Just because a person said they are part of a particular group doesn't mean they speak for that entire group. This video is like posting a video of a black person saying "white people can't be racist" and you using that to prove that white people can't be racist.
4. The fact we have actual scientific proof of multiple sexes (and we've known this since 1959) via chromosome assignment, proves that this one person's opinion is factually wrong, even if he experiences SRS himself in the past
5. Nothing in that entire video disproves current gender/sex identity or treatment. Literally all he says is a variation of "I changed my mind." Hardly a compelling argument of why the consensus among professionals should be thrown out like he says.

*Edit* Mr. Hayer suffered from A LOT of things. The issue is incredibly complex because of all of those things. Just because he now says that he made a mistake in no way, shape, or form means that everyone else is wrong too. Especially since the evidence and subject matter professionals point to the contrary.
 
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acpitz 1

Banned
Banned
You might want to do some research on your sources. There are a few things completely wrong about this.

1. Walt is not a scientist, health care professional, or in any way an expert on genetics.
2. Anecdotal evidence is not evidence. It's just his opinion. An opinion that isn't automatically correct. Especially since MR. Hayer also suffered from multiple personality disorder, which adds a huge layer of complexity to this entire issue.
3. Just because a person said they are part of a particular group doesn't mean they speak for that entire group. This video is like posting a video of a black person saying "white people can't be racist" and you using that to prove that white people can't be racist.
4. The fact we have actual scientific proof of multiple sexes (and we've known this since 1959) via chromosome assignment, proves that this one person's opinion is factually wrong, even if he experiences SRS himself in the past
5. Nothing in that entire video disproves current gender/sex identity or treatment. Literally all he says is a variation of "I changed my mind." Hardly a compelling argument of why the consensus among professionals should be thrown out like he says.

*Edit* Mr. Hayer suffered from A LOT of things. The issue is incredibly complex because of all of those things. Just because he now says that he made a mistake in no way, shape, or form means that everyone else is wrong too. Especially since the evidence and subject matter professionals point to the contrary.

Science enough for you?

Paul McHugh, MD, is University Distinguished Service Professor of Psychiatry at Johns Hopkins Medical School and the former psychiatrist in chief at Johns Hopkins Hospital. He is the author of The Mind Has Mountains: Reflections on Society and Psychiatry.

https://www.thepublicdiscourse.com/2015/06/15145/
 

Sacrosanct

Legend
Science enough for you?

Paul McHugh, MD, is University Distinguished Service Professor of Psychiatry at Johns Hopkins Medical School and the former psychiatrist in chief at Johns Hopkins Hospital. He is the author of The Mind Has Mountains: Reflections on Society and Psychiatry.

https://www.thepublicdiscourse.com/2015/06/15145/

Remember when I said you should check your sources? I meant it.

https://hrc.org/mchughexposed?_ga=2.209677010.1346357763.1558547238-805795380.1558547238
 


Gradine

The Elephant in the Room (she/they)
Sure. I've seen the soccer argument advanced to claim male superiority, but I think it's very clear that I'm not doing so. The ability to play soccer is not the judge of the worth of a person, and if it was then I'd be worth less than Alex Morgan. Nor am I arguing for intangible superiority. I'm just saying that in reality men and women are very different, and defining the equality based on capability (as if a person with less IQ than me is worth less than me, for example) is wrongheaded.

I'll drop the soccer argument because I should have earlier; it's obvious you know more about this than I do and it doesn't really matter regardless. I will, however, agree with this.

Ok, I'd prefer to not add a bunch of other controversial topics to what is already a sufficiently controversial thread. I will just say that we both agree that sex and gender are not the same thing (though I think we probably do disagree on what they are), and further I think we both agree that the division between men and women in athletics was intended to be a division based on biological sex and not gender, precisely to foster competition and athleticism in biological females that would otherwise lack a proper competitive showcase for their abilities. If you don't agree, ok, but that discussion probably better belongs in a different forum.

I don't disagree with any this, though I'll hope you'll understand why, if we do actually disagree on the nature of gender, why I would take that personally.


The topic introduced by the OP. So specifically, "Does there exist an RPG where mechanical differences between men and women would be justified?" Or, as I rephrased it to be what I think is clearer, "Assume that there exists some game where sex is an early choice in the chargen process and it ultimately impacts in some fashion the character so that you get different results on average or in the extremes depending on which biological sex you took. Is this game justified or inherently immoral/unethical/wrong?" To that question I have appended a follow up question, "If you claim that there is no such game where the differences would be justified, is the basis of your claim that such a game would not be realistic?"

My problem with this question is that "realism", in whatever form it might be described, is completely irrelevant to the conversation. It certainly doesn't impact whether such a mechanic could be considered "ethical" or "acceptable" or what have you. People who want "realism" in their games, however they've chosen to define "reality" (which may or may not have any basis in actual reality), can play their horrible games all they want. It doesn't mean that anybody should have to accept or appreciate that.
 

Gradine

The Elephant in the Room (she/they)
Before this thread gets swiftly closed, I'll point out one thing:

People are allowed to take whatever path through life they want. What they don't get to do is universalize their particular experiences. I can understand why there exists ex-trans individuals; it's a complex issue with a number of different factors weighing in on it. It did not take me to my early 30's to make a transition myself for no reason. It's hard. And it remains hard. So people are free to walk their path and share their story, whatever their reasons.

But they don't get to act like they have the universal experience. Making the decision to transition is not for everyone. Not even for some of the people who end up making it anyway. Just as I don't get to say "transitioning changed my life for the better, everybody should do it or they're wrong!" this individual does not get to say "transitioning ruined my life, nobody should do it."
 


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