OSR OSR Gripes

Eric V

Hero
They're archetypal, they created a legacy, defined the hobby.
They were brilliant and innovative in their day.

You could design a technically mechanically better system, today, but it'd be derivative rather than innovative, polished rather than brilliant. And, indeed, LOTS of such systems have been designed.

Sure, and that those issues only matter as such as something to learn from. As far as the experience of replaying an ancient RPG goes, those issues were part of the experience, so correcting for then (unless you were already doing so back then) defeats the purpose, and lampshading them can enhance the experience.

Or they might appreciate it for restoring as much of it as it did.

Another way to look at it was the accomplishment was greater.

Your basketball analogy was lost on me, so I'm going with one if my own.

Like a lotta nerds I'm a fan of SFX films. I really appreciate the masters is stop-motion animation, Willis O'Brien and Ray Harryhausen.

I have to acknowledge that CGI is a much more powerful technique. But, I don't think it often approaches the artistry of the FX in the original King Kong or Jason & the Argonauts.

And, I can also point to silver linings in the obsolete technology. For instance, CGI can move very fast, with motion blur, looking perfectly smooth and very realistic. Which means you see a blur. You get mire action and realism, but what did that creature even look like. It's a huge technical improvement over the 'strobing' inevitable in even the best stop motion, but, I at least knew what I was looking at.

In NO way did I mean to take away from the innovation and brilliance of the original games in their day. 50 years later, though...

I can understand liking the warts; I can't understand not acknowledging them as warts, though.

As far as design goes, is there a style of play from the OSR days that couldn't be replicated with modern games? It's not obvious...yes, the original games were deadlier, but even 5e can achieve that level of danger with the appropriate number of monsters and not changing the rules.

Can OSR games play in all styles that modern ones can without changing the rules? It doesn't seem so...
 

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Eric V

Hero
The purpose of bball, at least so far as those playing on the court? To score as many points as possible, which leads to innovation of design in offenses (and of course, defenses). A team can not be successful using only a playbook from the 90s.

Now, I understand RPGs don't have a numeric qualifier that way, but an rpg that could accommodate as many playstyles as possible in a fun way would seem to be a reasonable equivalent.
 

Celebrim

Legend
It's clear why some might want to go back to a previous version, based on preferences, nostalgia (not a bad thing!), or really, a bunch of reasons.

Nostalgia is the 'n word' of the OSR community. The very mention of it drives them up the wall. The average member of the OSR community hearing the word thinks that you are saying that they have no real reasons for liking OSR games. The average person using the word merely means that they have a lot of fun playing games 'back in the day' and want to recapture that magic.

What's not clear to me is how people think games designed in the 70s are designed better than modern ones. I can understand preferring them, but, as [MENTION=4937]Celebrim[/MENTION] points out above, one would have to acknowledge the issues.

The very touchiness they have about criticism of the system is I think pretty telling. I can't imagine a player of 3.X whether 3.5 or pathfinder actually objecting to the idea that 3.X has serious issues out of the box. Indeed, I've never had a discussion with someone who is deeply familiar with a system where I'm also deeply familiar with the system about the systems problems that regularly goes in the direction talking about OSR does.

And again, for me the most telling thing is that if you do get one of these OSR people to defend the rules, like 8 out of the 10 things that they'll talk about aren't rules but play processes like rolling attributes, random magic item placement, more challenging encounters, proposition filters to use more fiction specific actions rather than 'moves', and so forth. All of those things can be and frequently are used as either rules variants or simply processes of play using more modern rule sets. Let's get real: 3e had random magic item tables and the default treasure placement methodology in its guidelines is random. Granted, it won't randomly generate a +5 vorpal sword in the hands of a low level goblin the way the 1e tables could, but then I seriously doubt that if the dice did generate that result in 1e AD&D (or OSRIC) that the results would stand, because 1e AD&D and it's emulators had the metarule "don't let the dice ruin the game" that applied to random treasure and random encounters.

And then invariably one of the things that they'll cite is that it doesn't have rules, which either undermines the claim or more telling means that they probably either don't know the rules or don't use them. Certainly, if you made the claim '1e AD&D doesn't have rules for X' you'd almost certainly be wrong. What you almost certainly meant was, "While AD&D does have rules for X, they are bad rules and therefore no one uses them."

Anyway, my whole point of all this grognardish grumbling is that what OSR is really about is not substance but style. And by that I don't mean that it is about something unimportant any more than by nostalgia I mean 'bad'. By nostalgia I mean good, as in most people aren't nostalgic about things that weren't good. Style is very important and is at least as important as rules, but it doesn't require an OSR ruleset to have an old school game.


Like anything else involving design, things get better as time passes, whether it's tech, social issues, education techniques, sports, whatever...and that makes sense, because designers today have access to everything that's come before.

Well, as long as you are willing to concede that this progress is not a smooth and even thing, but is filled with setbacks, mistakes, digressions, and other sorts of failed experiments, then I agree. The mistakes become part of the lessons learned by future designers, which is how we very slowly get better at things.

So, if someone says "As a wizard player, I loved 3.5" I can understand.

I can too, but if someone admitted to that it would likely imply very big things about what they really wanted in a system - most of them not healthy. For example, it would imply that they liked to have as an individual player an answer for every problem, and quite possibly that they liked to have spotlight in every challenge. Depending on the sort of wizards that they played and the sort of game that they ran, it might mean that the preferred to play a game without real challenge where they could just go from success to success. Of course, a really self-aware player might actually admit that, though that might not be the traditional metrics of good design, as a practical matter it is actually what they like.

By way of contrast, I never had a player play a successful Wizard in any of my 3.X games. Indeed, even when I was running RAW games Wednesday night in open dungeon crawls for all comers at the local game shop, the most successful returning player decided that the only way he was going to survive as a wizard was start a fighter, and then accept that a less powerful but less squishy wizard was the only thing that would work. This is so very much the opposite of CharOp decision making that I can only assume that if the CharOp people are playing anything other than a theoretical character building minigame, that they must be playing a very different game that I was running - even when I was running the same ruleset.

They might dislike 5e for addressing that imbalance...but they'd have to acknowledge that the game is better balanced. The design is better, but it no longer fits the preference.

But do they have to acknowledge that? To acknowledge that the 5e spellcaster is better balanced than the 3e full casters is to say that in some sense their victories in 3e weren't earned, but they simply the result of exploiting badly thought out rules. And that word 'exploit' could very well trigger them just as hard as 'nostalgia' triggers members of the OSR community.

You have to think about why people play RPGs. There are ton of different reasons for doing it, most of them boiling down to some variation on the 'illusion of success'. And for some people, the illusion of success requires them to not see through the illusion so that it feels like real success. So for our hypothetical player that loved 3.X for its full spellcasters and what you can do with them, to tell that player that that is bad design is to attack them emotionally - you are imperiling the illusion that makes the game fun for them. You are likely to end up in a strange argument with said player about how balance isn't important to an RPG (back to the John Wick school of gaming) and really RPGs are supposed to be unbalanced (or something of the sort) where what's really going on is a proxy argument for "stop attacking my illusion of success".

Now obviously, there is something very different going on here, as I've only met a few AD&D players who hard core exploit the spell rules as hard as a 3e CharOp player - though it certainly can be done if you exploit the illusion rules, for example. And the OSR style seems to involve a lot more dying all the time (at least in theory) than the sort of mostly on rails 1-20 AP campaign that become associated with 3e.

Again, I don't fully understand it and don't claim to understand it. My best theory is still the one I put forward - for most people their habits of play get attached to particular rules set and if they want to change their habits of play they have to change the rules. From the sort of complaints that I see, the sorts of styles of play and the sorts of habits of play that became stereotypical in say the 3.X era don't appeal to them, and to get away from those ingrained habits or to get their associates away from those ingrained habits they had to change the rules and the atmosphere. And if that worked for them, then more power to them. But for me, the cost of going back to those jankier rules is less than the cost of creating new ways of thinking about 3.X rules, or just tweaking the 3.X rules to nerf spellcasters a bit. And you might have notice from my discussion of 1e AD&D, I don't mind system mastery and optimization either as a player or a DM. To me, well created and conceived characters mechanically just means that there will be greater campaign continuity because the PCs will survive long enough to not just have a great scene but a story. I mean one thing that is definitely telling to me about these discussions is how often he OSR players all assume the best stories about D&D are tales of how some character died.
 

Tony Vargas

Legend
I can understand liking the warts; I can't understand not acknowledging them as warts, though.
I've long noted a distinction between liking something in spite of flaws, and liking it for the flaws.

But, I suppose there's a further distinction between liking the flaws for their 'silver linings' vs their dismal clouds.

As far as design goes, is there a style of play from the OSR days that couldn't be replicated with modern games?
Replicated, no, of course you can use a more technically functional game to replicate the lesser one. You can show a B&W movie on a color tv. You could put strobing into your CGI. You can play a 4e (paragon level) wizard able to fly and turn invisible, in a 5th level party.

But, you probably won't so faithfully replicate the experience, because you know you're doing it on purpose, not as a consequence of normal, or only-available, process.

Can OSR games play in all styles that modern ones can without changing the rules? It doesn't seem so...
Actually, thing is, they probably were played in those styles, back in the day, by changing the rules, and that's why we have modern games tgat do em better, now. Also, that means changing the rules is a legit part of the Old School experience.
 

Doug McCrae

Legend
What's the purpose of an rpg, then?
There are many different goals of rpging, some mutually exclusive, including but not limited to winning, simulation, storytelling, socialising. Rpgs are an unusual activity in this respect. It's the main reason we argue about them so much on the internet.
 

Garthanos

Arcadian Knight
Actually, thing is, they probably were played in those styles, back in the day, by changing the rules, and that's why we have modern games tgat do em better, now. Also, that means changing the rules is a legit part of the Old School experience.

Changing the rules was definitely a part of the experience I think renovating the spell casting system seemed to be par for the course unless you were at a convention or just starting out with a newbie DM of course that is an anecdote not data.
 

Doug McCrae

Legend
Now, I understand RPGs don't have a numeric qualifier that way, but an rpg that could accommodate as many playstyles as possible in a fun way would seem to be a reasonable equivalent.
GM A likes to create their own house rules, it's their favourite aspect of rpg-ing. They love that pre-3e D&D has no universal mechanic and consists of many discrete subsystems. Their house rules won't have many knock-on effects and they won't look 'out of place'. In fact it's even to their advantage that many of the rules of AD&D 1e are crap - it means their house rules are better than the rules they are replacing and the players like them.

GM B hates to house rule. They want a complete system. They like games with a universal mechanic because it gives them a foundation to make rulings, something they're not all that comfortable or confident doing. GM B prefers the WotC editions of D&D.

These hypothetical GMs show that system preferences can be mutually exclusive. There's no way you could create one system that appeals to both GM A and GM B.
 

Tony Vargas

Legend
Changing the rules was definitely a part of the experience I think renovating the spell casting system seemed to be par for the course unless you were at a convention or just starting out with a newbie DM of course that is an anecdote not data.
"Mana Systems" seemed pervasive back in the day, at least in my area - though I heard about 'em a lot more than had to play under them. I feel like they were often regarded as broken, but, 30+ years later, that could just have been me. ;)


These hypothetical GMs show that system preferences can be mutually exclusive. There's no way you could create one system that appeals to both GM A and GM B.
I think part of 5e's appeal (or, at least, comparative immunity from criticism) is that it /does/ at least accommodate both sorts of DMs. (Among other sorts of DMs and players.)

DM A emphasizes the latitude exercising his judgement in the "play loop" gives him, not only narrating success/failure often, but calling for resolution tests other than standard-issue checks. His players will angle for the resolutions that tend to go in their favor - if that tends /not/ to be a check vs a DC, they'll be a lot more accepting of his variants, too, when he gets to introducing those.

DM B emphasizes the extant rules, exercising judgement only in so far as setting DCs. He'll call for a DC 5 or 30 check rather than narrate success/failure. His players develop some faith in the system, and his game runs the way he likes.


DM A doesn't normally use optional rules, only on a case-by-case, approval basis, but he's open to evaluating anything, and will introduce his own stuff, too.

DM B taps into the tribal knowledge and officialdom of AL and runs using those rules & interpretations. Nice & neat.
 
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Garthanos

Arcadian Knight
GM A likes to create their own house rules, it's their favourite aspect of rpg-ing. They love that pre-3e D&D has no universal mechanic and consists of many discrete subsystems. Their house rules won't have many knock-on effects and they won't look 'out of place'. In fact it's even to their advantage that many of the rules of AD&D 1e are crap - it means their house rules are better than the rules they are replacing and the players like them.

GM B hates to house rule. They want a complete system. They like games with a universal mechanic because it gives them a foundation to make rulings, something they're not all that comfortable or confident doing. GM B prefers the WotC editions of D&D.

These hypothetical GMs show that system preferences can be mutually exclusive. There's no way you could create one system that appeals to both GM A and GM B.

I am DM C which is a little like A in that I am fond of making my own stuff however I like have a game system that creates solid reliable foundations so when I change its bits and pieces, I can predict the results and make fewer errors up front.
 

Eric V

Hero
GM A likes to create their own house rules, it's their favourite aspect of rpg-ing. They love that pre-3e D&D has no universal mechanic and consists of many discrete subsystems. Their house rules won't have many knock-on effects and they won't look 'out of place'. In fact it's even to their advantage that many of the rules of AD&D 1e are crap - it means their house rules are better than the rules they are replacing and the players like them.

GM B hates to house rule. They want a complete system. They like games with a universal mechanic because it gives them a foundation to make rulings, something they're not all that comfortable or confident doing. GM B prefers the WotC editions of D&D.

These hypothetical GMs show that system preferences can be mutually exclusive. There's no way you could create one system that appeals to both GM A and GM B.

Does the existence of rules or mechanics -stop- GM A from creating their own house rules? I don't see why it would...

Put more simply,post 2e games don't stop GM A from house-ruling, so he's fine, no? Meanwhile GM B would be up the creek in pre-3e games.

IN post 2e games, GM A is as free as ever to house rule, but GM B is also accommodated within this system, right? Doesn't that make it a better system (preferences aside)?
 

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