Worlds of Design: “Old School” in RPGs and other Games – Part 2 and 3 Rules, Pacing, Non-RPGs, and G

Worlds of Design: “Old School” in RPGs and other Games – Part 2 Rules, Pacing, and Non-RPGs For me, the difference between Old School and anything else is not in the rules, but in attitude, as described last time. Yet the rules, and the pacing, can make a big difference; parts 2 and 3.

Worlds of Design: “Old School” in RPGs and other Games – Part 2 Rules, Pacing, and Non-RPGs

For me, the difference between Old School and anything else is not in the rules, but in attitude, as described last time. Yet the rules, and the pacing, can make a big difference; parts 2 and 3.


“Old School Games have a lot of failure, more mediocre outcomes... and the brilliant stroke that suddenly feels astonishing because there is something there to contrast it with. New School Games are grey goo.” Jeffro

Last time I talked about some differences between “Old School” and newer approaches to RPGs, especially related to story. Here are some more.
[h=3]Rules[/h] The difference in “schools” is not about rules. Rules are not sacred, nor do they fit for every person. I think about rules in terms of game design. Occasionally choices designers make in games are arbitrary, one is as good as another. Some of these choices, the game designer(s) might want to change after publication, if they could. And over time, a game designer might make different choices for rules simply because tastes/trends change. For these reasons it makes no sense, to me, to adhere strictly to every rule in an RPG set.

Jeffro Johnson goes back to rules before AD&D (first edition as we tend to call it), or rules intended to substitute, such as Moldvay-B/X-Basic rules. So Jeffro says thieves must have d4 for hit points, because the rules he loves specify that.

I’m much more willing to vary from the original rules in order to make the game better (from my point of view, of course), so my thieves/rogues have d6s, can use bows (Robin Hood), and vary in other ways from the original rules. My 1e clerics can choose one of three types of sharp weapons (two-handers, one-handed swords, bow and arrow) and use those weapons as well as the blunt ones - because it’s better for the game. They can memorize twice as many spells as they can cast. And so on.

But a GM can make his game Old or New regardless of the actual rules. Some rules make it easier to tell stories (e.g. FATE). Simpler rulesets in general give the GM more freedom to tell stories, as there are fewer rules to get in the way of the story, and likely less “rules lawyering”.
[h=3]GM Role[/h] In terms of the two major conceptions of the GM’s role, the GM as rules arbiter and the GM as a sort of god, which works better for the storytelling that’s part of New School? I think rules arbiter is much less effective, as the rules can get in the way of the story. GM as rules arbiter tends to go with long rulesets (which more likely need an arbiter), and rules-heavy games get in the way of story-telling. Rules-light games ought to be better for GM storytelling. Players who don’t want the GM to control the story may prefer rules-heavy RPGs. These are tendencies, of course, not certainties, and likely there are counterexamples.
[h=3]Pacing[/h] Pacing is a big part of the difference between the two extremes. Good pacing (in novel and film terms) calls for alternating lows and highs, to make the highs that much more effective.

Old School recognizes that there will be not-very-exciting or even unpleasant/horrific adventures, to go with super-exciting and terrifically rewarding adventures. New School “evens it out”, ensuring that nothing will be unpleasant but also effectively ensuring that nothing will be terrific – because you can’t fail. “Loot drops” are boring when every monster has a loot drop. Boatloads of treasure become boring when you always get boatloads of treasure. “No one ever gets in serious trouble” is boring. In other words, the New abandons good pacing in favor of enabling “no negative consequences” or just “no losses”. You can certainly do that, but it sounds tedious to me.
[h=3]Non-RPGs, too[/h] This Old/New dichotomy can be seen clearly in board and card games as well. Such games have moved away from the traditional direct competition, and from high levels of player interaction, to parallel competitions that are usually puzzles (i.e., have always-correct solutions) rather than games (which do not have such solutions). Each player pursues his own puzzle down one of the "Multiple Paths to Victory," that is, following one of several always-correct solutions provided by the designer.

"As an Action RPG, the best thing about Torchlight II is the way loot, skill choices, and chance bubble over into a fountain of light and treasure at the whiff of a right-click, every single time, for as long as you can keep going." PC Gamer magazine, 2012

We see the difference in video games, too, but for commercial reasons those games have gone far into the New. To begin with, computers lend themselves to avatar-based "experiences" (forms of story) rather than games. Also, computer games of all types are far into reward (or at least, lack of negative consequences), having left consequence (Old School) behind some time ago. In other words, you’re rewarded for playing while not having to worry/take responsibility for the consequences of your own actions. (There are exceptions of course.) In the extreme, players will blame the game if they don’t succeed. If you make a free to play video game (a very common type now), practically speaking you MUST make it easy and positive so that players will stick around long enough to decide to provide you with some revenue via in-game micro-transactions.

(Editor's Note: We decided to add in Lew's third article, below, so it puts all of his points in context; please see my comment below).

Here are some Old/New School differences in actual gameplay.
[h=3]Strategy Over Tactics[/h] Military strategy (what you do before battle is joined) is de-emphasized in opposite-of-old-school games. Why?

  • Good strategy requires planning; tactics can become standardized, rule of thumb, easier
  • If the GM is telling a story, he or she wants players to follow the script, not devise their own ways of doing things overall (which is what strategy is all about)
Tactical games, on the other hand, are all about immediate fighting, what 4th edition D&D was built for, what many computer RPGs are built for because computers are at their best in tactics and worst in strategy.
[h=3]Hand-Holding[/h] Old School games are often about exploration, about finding/identifying the objectives. And recognizing when something about a location/opponent makes it too dangerous to take on right now.

Something like a secret door becomes a “dirty GM trick” instead of a challenge for the dungeon-delving skills of the party. “New” games are about being guided by the game (GM) to where the fight is, then fighting, then getting the loot. (You recognize the description of typical computer RPGs, especially MMO RPGs?)

In other words, the GM “holds the hands” of the players, guiding them rather than leaving them to their own devices. Every GM does this on occasion, but it’s the norm in the extreme of New School.
[h=3]What’s Important in Play?[/h] In Old School, it’s the success of the party that counts, much more than the success of the individual. This is a “wartime” attitude now quite uncommon in the USA, but common amongst the Baby Boomer wargamers who originated RPGs. In the extremes of the newer school, it’s the individual that counts (e.g. as expressed in “All About Me” RPGs), not the group. This makes a huge difference in how people play the game.
[h=3]Sport or War?[/h] I talked about this in an earlier column (RPG Combat: Sport or War?). To summarize, in war everything is fair, and stratagems – “a plan or scheme, especially one used to outwit an opponent” - are the ideal. If you get in a fair fight, you’ve screwed up: fair fights are for suckers. That style puts a premium on intelligence-gathering and on strategy. Combat as sport looks for a fair fight that the players will just barely manage to win, often as managed by the GM. Combat as War is less heroic, but it’s a lot more practical from the adventurer’s point of view. And for me, a lot more believable. If a fight is truly fair, you’re going to lose 50% of the time, in the long run. That’s not survivable.
[h=3]Nuance[/h] There are lots of “in-betweens”, of course:

  • What about a campaign where the party can suffer a total or near wipeout, but someone has left a wish with a reliable soul who can wish away the disaster. They can fail (lose), but most or all of them will survive.
  • What about the “All About Me” style I wrote about recently? Usually, there is no possibility of failure, but a GM could put a little failure into the equation if they wished.
  • What about the campaign where everyone knows their character is doomed to die, likely before reaching (in AD&D terms) 10th or 11th level? Then glory (and a glorious death) often becomes the objective.
  • What about the campaign where characters normally survive, but when someone does something egregiously stupid or foolish, the character can die?
  • You can hand-hold players to the point of combat, and still make that combat deadly.
RPGs can accommodate all kinds of tastes. But we don’t have to like every kind, do we?

This article was contributed by Lewis Pulsipher (lewpuls) as part of EN World's Columnist (ENWC) program. You can follow Lew on his web site and his Udemy course landing page. If you enjoy the daily news and articles from EN World, please consider contributing to our Patreon!
 

log in or register to remove this ad

Lewis Pulsipher

Lewis Pulsipher

Dragon, White Dwarf, Fiend Folio

Umbran

Mod Squad
Staff member
Supporter
My feeling is that the articles that generate a lot of discussion are ones that are provocative in some way.

That wouldn't be surprising. And, I suppose the Geraldo Rivera School of Journalism is one place you can go for provocative... but I would like to advocate for better than that.
 

log in or register to remove this ad

billd91

Not your screen monkey (he/him)
IMO Vancian casting is one of the biggest sources of pacing issues in D&D. It more than anything contributes to the "five minute workday". It's really challenging to have D&D not have a frequent rest cycle that is very driven by when the PCs run out of spells. The designers have tried over and over to try to break the "five minute workday" and have really never succeeded, which tells me that the underlying premises of the game don't let it happen.

I think this is a factor that has varied a lot over the years and editions. When you had only a couple of healing spells in the party back in 1e, then it was definitely a factor. You tended to stop to rest or retreat when the cleric could no longer patch you up. I found it very rare that anyone stopped just because the wizard was out of spells past the first couple of levels.

This changed in 3e in two ways - spontaneous healing eased the burden of cleric healing tying up resources a little, but the existence of healing wands virtually cured the problem - from a healing perspective. The other change was in how 3e calculated saving throws. The save-or-lose spells became so much more effective in higher level slots and with pumped caster stats vs weak saves that I think we started seeing a lot more wizards pushing the rest to recover those top slots after they went nova with them in the first couple of combats.

Now with 5e, I think the modifications to the traditional system that allow a variety of spells to be prepped and spontaneously chosen between while keeping the save DCs static offers a lot of flexibility. Playing a wizard, I still have to manage my resources, but the cantrips are generally strong enough to carry a lot of burden so I don't feel the need to blow a more costly spell every round and that means I'm not pushing up against the 15 minute day problem.

As always, I do believe local culture has a lot of impact on these factors as well. If a group doesn't insist on going nova and then resting to be at their peak every single combat, then the 15 minute day was never a real problem. If disposable healing was always readily available via potions and scrolls (in 1e/2e) and wands (in 3e) in a campaign, then it was less of a problem. And some of the culture, I believe, is dependent on how you learned to play. If you were used to 1e/2e play, then my experience was that the changes in healing was what you noticed and had a big impact. If you played a lot of computer games that let you save a lot or rest/recover a lot before going into a fight, then I think you might have fallen more into the 15 minute day issue because it gave you play that was closer to your expectation.
 

MGibster

Legend
Old School recognizes that there will be not-very-exciting or even unpleasant/horrific adventures, to go with super-exciting and terrifically rewarding adventures. New School “evens it out”, ensuring that nothing will be unpleasant but also effectively ensuring that nothing will be terrific – because you can’t fail.

I categorically reject the idea that new school means player characters can never fail or that adventures will never be horrific or unpleasant. There's a little game called Esoterrorist which centers around investigators and their efforts to combat paranormal threats that uses the Gumshoe system. The Gumshoe rules ensure that the PCs will find the core clue required to take them to the next scene. So in that sense, no, they can't fail because failure in this case means the game cannot continue.

But the investigators can certainly fail in other ways. Our group had to sit back while a supernatural entity murdered five people because it was the only at that point that we could banish it. At the end of the campaign we failed to save the lives of dozens of dozens of people because we failed to make the connection to an earlier scenario and an object that would allow us to lure a supernatural entity out of hiding. And of course we lost investigators who were mangled or had their sanity shredded to nothing.
 

5ekyu

Hero
Both types can be really fun, especially when the game is built with mechanics that support that particular kind of play.

For example, Star Trek Adventures (STA) by Modiphius is definitely a "new school" game in that it's really oriented around story. There's minimal PC advancement and it's also very team oriented---PCs are in Starfleet and under military orders! PCs can certainly die. It's not oriented around loot drops. A lot of the adventures end with the PCs having a partial or ambiguous success, just like the shows. I'm not sure I'd want to run an entire campaign of it, but it really does a good job of getting the feel of a Star Trek episode and it's a fantastic two or three session game. One reason it's so good at this is because it's got tools built in that enable the GM to control the pace in the form of the Threat mechanic, which reads weirdly but works well in play. (The quickstart to STA is free and gives you a very good idea of how the game runs.)

D&D doesn't really have anything like that so if you want to run a game with the episodic and dramatic feel, you'd have to either (a) have a really good DM capable of making that happen or (b) run the risk of things feeling very railroaded.

You're right, though, a table with markedly mixed preferences is very hard to GM for.

The original post that lead to this entire thread is just full of empirically unhinged generalizations based on "impressions" not actual play, and it clearly shows.
"D&D doesn't really have anything like that so if you want to run a game with the episodic and dramatic feel, you'd have to either (a) have a really good DM capable of making that happen or (b) run the risk of things feeling very railroaded. "

See, to me, I think it's a telling thing that apparently the same thing done "by gm spending chips" rather than by "gm runs the npcs and the world" can be taken as just expected in one case and railroading in the other.

Back in "yee olde days" when the ground rumbled in the background as we delved deeper it wasnt "railroading" it was "ok, lets not stay longer than we have to cuz this baby dont seem like it's as dormant as they said." No chips. No gripes about offenses to our agency. Just part of the challenge and fun.

Then at some point, agency, sandboxing, railroading became something some folks got worried about so now we get full circle back to the GM decides the mountain is dangerous long as he has chips and that makes it new school and not railroady?

I am not trying to be dismissive of that transition or the concerns but I find it amusing that the *not really new* threat chips (see velow) basically just serve as a beard to give GMs the same choices they had from day one - with the exact same risks of in the hands of a not "really good" gm.

To me, the downside of this is the embedding of the chip economy so strongly into challenge resolution that it really puts the chips as the top focus - both in success and consequence but as the top reward that matter - I spotlight STA as an example. Sèms more like the celebration after a conflict is not over "we saved the hostages" but "we got 5 momentum." I think a word balloon graph of the whole run of Shield of Tomorrow STA likely has "momentum" as the most used word in the entire series.

Sidebar...

"Not really new" - To me it seems like the threat chips in play dont turn out to be that different than a system mechanics that's been in play for a long time for games where gimmick points (drama point, fate point, hero points etc) have bern in play. Those games shifted the "bad stuff happens" from "normal" or "pre-paid flaws" to "gm gives extra hero point when you get screwed with." Threst chips adds another layer of stockpiling.

My group's biases aside, an aspect that I like from STA (not though to outweigh the rest of its momentum problems imo) is that if I recall correctly "resting" costs you dome of your momentum pool - making it "better" to press on if you can as far as that very importsntvredource is concerned - agsin just seems a mechanical representation of yee olde "but if we rest the other guys get to regroup and may counterattack" playstyle.

I might have to think about whether this mechanical representation of what were basic gming roleplay is intended to be (and does it succeed at) removing that "good gm" skill play and replacing it with more "follow the mechanics" oriented play - with "how soon does thre mountain blow" and "do the goblins regroup and attack while we rest " decided not by gm but by how many threat chips the mechanics gave them?
 

5ekyu

Hero
As much as I tend to disagree with them, those articles drive traffic every time they go up.
My bet is most any thread as insulting and dismissive to other gamers that the mods not only allowed but endorsed would get a lot of traffic too.

But frewudnyly those get mod warnings instead of featured status.
 

Mark Kernow

Explorer
I (and I am sure many other people) would love to write or read a series of positive articles about the best that the OSR has to offer. The way that people like Patrick Stuart and Scrap Princess are innovating and adding value to the rpg hobby as a whole and the common ground between old school and new school. I am sure there would be an audience for that. Wouldn't that be better?
 

5ekyu

Hero
I (and I am sure many other people) would love to write or read a series of positive articles about the best that the OSR has to offer. The way that people like Patrick Stuart and Scrap Princess are innovating and adding value to the rpg hobby as a whole and the common ground between old school and new school. I am sure there would be an audience for that. Wouldn't that be better?
Highlight strengths on their own not as part of ripping other? How radical.
 


Lanefan

Victoria Rules
Okay....why do you think his conclusion is correct? Is it simply because it sounds reasonable? Or have you played some specific games where this has been an observable result?
Using various D&D editons as an example:

The peaks - those moments where things go well in the fiction, the rules system is working like it should, and everyone's having fun are approximately of equal "height" in all editions.

It's the valleys where the differences lie, both in "depth" and in frequency and-or duration. First off, to get it out of the way, I'll say that opportunities for negative story-based outcomes have always been there, but as such things are not all that quantifyable they don't help with a comparison, which this is.

In older D&D there were many different types of "valleys", everything from stretches of party frustration (can't find the next step) to individual PCs being on the wrong end of a save-or-suck/die to losing levels or valuable gear, to whatever. Character death was but one type of valley. And in all cases sometimes those valleys went on for a while - it might take a session or two before the way forward is found, or a save-or-suck might put someone out of action for half the night, or it might take a long time to recover the lost level or gear, etc.

Newer D&D has done a lot at the system design level to mitigate the depth, frequency, and duration of those valleys. Fail-forward (4e). Save-or-die virtually gone. Save-or-suck durations greatly reduced. Level loss is gone. Magic items almost never have to save vs destruction. It's more difficult for a PC to die (compare 5e's series of death saves with 0e-1e's drop dead at 0 h.p.). The lasting effects of a death-revival cycle are gone. Etc.

Laudable goal, to reduce those valleys...but it leads to an unexpected result. In older D&D the depth and frequency of the valleys made the peaks very special when they occurred, but with the valleys now less deep and less frequent the peaks - while not having changed in and of themselves very much - seem lesser. I know that's not well put, but I'm having trouble putting words to what I'm thinking - if I had the technical knowhow to show this on a chart it'd make more sense.

So in the end, to support my earlier point, the graph is 'flatter' because the valleys are shallower.

Perhaps there's another way to at least point at the difference: assuming experience with all editions, a player going in to an old-school* D&D game will probably be expecting few peaks and lots of valleys while a player going in to a new school* D&D game will probably be expecting lots of peaks and few valleys.

* - by feel; though the editions tend to push in certain directions any of 'em can be made to play in either mode with a bit of work.

Not really. I don’t think that the difference is all that relevant. Sure, 1e is deadlier than 5e. But 5e can still be plenty deadly, and the play experience is significantly similar.
I'd disagree that the play experience is all that similar, if only due to a) the typical 5e character having so many more mechanical options at its disposal which the player then has to be aware of and in some cases keep track of and b) the massively-faster rest and recovery rates of 5e characters (and their foes) vs 1e characters takes slow day-by-day attrition off the table in favour of all-or-nothing approaches.

Don’t you feel at this point like you’re starting with the conclusion and you’re doing everything you can to prove that conclusion?

Old School D&D is basically “kick down the door, kill the monster, take it’s stuff”. Are you really trying to say that OD&D wasn’t about the accumulation of treasure?
I'm not saying that at all. I'm saying that in older D&D there was no real baked-in concept of wealth-by-level or treasure parcels to be carefully measured and doled out. It was, or at least from both the player and DM sides very much seemed to be, much more random; with only the vaguest of guidelines suggesting not to go all Monty Haul on things while making sure the party had (for example) magic weapons available by the time they started facing foes that required magic to hit.

Sure there were 'treasure types' listed for each monster but IME those were largely ignored in favour of "what sort of stuff might this monster have reasonably accumulated, given where and what it is?", without much regard for whether it's a 2nd-level of 10th-level party finding it.

How’d you level up again?
Hey, though I've never used xp for gp I can certainly see how it pushes the exploration side over the combat side. :)

Alternate paths to success is exactly what New School is working toward. The idea is that no single failure will stop progress. You’re now switching from “what’s wrong with giving up and finding something else to do?” to “you should just find another way to succeed.”
I'm saying both, and also saying that both must come from the player/PC side. Fail-forward often seems from the outside more like what I'd call "success backward", where the DM gives you the success but throws in a complication (e.g. you succeed in climbing the wall but there's a guard at the top waiting for you). Well, IMO as soon as that happens it's not a failure any more: a failure means you never reach the top.

Another example: you roll 'fail' on searching for a secret door (or don't even think to search for it at all!) but in the interests of fail-forward and-or story progression the door is revealed anyway when some monsters come out of it and attack. The DM hands you a success; and though once in a rare while it makes both dramatic and realistic sense that something like this might happen, when it starts becoming a regular thing it immediately starts looking contrived and just - bad.

Maybe it's just a terminology thing, but to me fail means fail (you don't reach the top or find the door or whatever) and succeed means succeed (you do reach the top or find the door or whatever) no matter what else gets thrown in to muddy the waters.

It doesn’t limit adventure design. There’s no reason you can’t have secret doors in an adventure. And even if you couldn’t, is that really such a hamper on design? If the only interesting thing about your dungeon is that it has a secret door, then it’s really not all that interesting.
You can still have secret doors but you're always forced to put in alternate means of access should the secret door never be found. Or, you're forced to avoid putting vital things behind said door even when it makes the greatest sense in the fiction that that's exactly where they'd be.

As for needing two adventures out of one, considering you said the PC’s could simply go find other adventures, this doesn’t seem necessary.
Perhaps, but one can never have too many adventures! :)

Okay....so do you have an example of a rule system that encourages GM railroading? My example was from 1e, but I’d say it could happen in just about any game because it was a case of the DM gating the later part of an adventure behind one skill check that could fail. This is a poor decision on the DM’s (or designer’s) part.

So what system specific example can you offer?
Fail-forward in 4e (and other games). As noted above, the general point of fail-forward seems to be to keep the story moving by having the DM find a way to grant success* in place of failure. Though subtle, this does - or very easily can - end up becoming a railroad**. And should the players realize it's happening then things can go sideways in a hurry, if they know the DM isn't going to let them outright fail they'll stop trying so hard to succeed**.

* - success at cost is still success in the end.
** - been there, done that, from both sides of the screen.
 

Umbran

Mod Squad
Staff member
Supporter
Highlight strengths on their own not as part of ripping other? How radical.

I believe Piratecat's way of putting it was something to the effect of, "I double-dog dare you to tell me what's so awesome about your game, without comparing it to another game."
 

Related Articles

Remove ads

Remove ads

Top