D&D 5E Sharpshooter/Great Weapon Master and Why They Are Broken 101.

Lehrbuch

First Post
Yeah I (as a DM) use Investigation more than Perception overall.

In my experience, (both as player and DM) this is very dependent on what the character is good at.

Pretty much, when able to decide/make the choice, the player gets the PC to do the things that the PC is good at. So, PCs who are better at Investigation tend to try to use that more often than Perception, and vice versa.
 

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The Mezzoloths + Ghouls (Encounter 6) I imagined in another trap room (they are personal guards of the black dragon, assigned to him by the Dragonlord of the north). The set up is a large circular room that gradually slopes in towards the centre. It is magically covered in darkness (heavy obscurement) and concealed pit traps are spread out in it (make them as deadly as you want).

When the PCs enter, the Mezzoloths activate a lever that drops a steel door that seals the room and the PCs inside it. The Mezzoloths drop a cloud kill in the darkened room (the ghouls, ghast and Mezzoloths are immune to poison and all three have blinsight so ignore the traps and fight normally).

Once a cloudkill ends, the other Mezzoloth drops another one!

In between ghoul paralysis + cloud kill, PCs stumbling into traps (note the cloud kill settles inside the pits!), and the magic darkness and heavy obscurement of the cloudkill, this is a pretty deadly room!

If the PCs allied with the Giant in encounter 2, he may warn them about this room (cryptically of course).

If the PCs have time to do so, they can rest after this encounter. The black dragon emissary of the Dragonlord is haughty and confident in his protections. In addition, he's a deadly encounter and the PCs are going to need all the rest they can get before encoutnering him (suggest they rest now if they havent already).

Encounter 7 is the dragon. Its a vast chamber, with pools of acid everywhere. A concealed tunnel (heavily trapped and warded with magic) in the roof that leads to the top of the mountain, and provides him the means of escape if he is pressed. He uses his superioir senses, flight and magic (I suggest counterspell, shield and mirror image as his spells) to crush the party. He is not above landing next to a PC and using the ready action to multiattack (triggered by his wing buffet legendary attack). This lets him [wait for a PC to act] then wing buffet, knock a PC prone, full attack him, and then fly off all at once. He opens battles with a breath weapon [he flies down, catches at least two PCs in the breath as a line, then flies 40' back up] and then his frightful presence. There are giant dragon statues and mammoth stalagmites in the room, which he uses for full cover if needed.

The dragon is hubristic and only flees if clearly outmatched. If it flees, this breaks the magic of the pact. The Dragonlord of the north is most displeased with his servants failure and with the PCs...

Note: This encounter is already super dangerous (depending on the PCs resource use in the preceeding 6 encounters, it could go south very quickly). His breath weapon alone is likely to drop 2-3 PCs on round one. If for some reason your party are dealing with this encounter easily consider adding the following fluff (be advised this makes the encounter deadly+).

'As one of the chosen emissaries of the Dragon lord of the north, the black dragon wears one of the five fabled dragon helms (one exists for each color of chromatic dragon). These artifacts allow a dragon who wears one to assume human form indefinately (his stats do not change in human form, and he retains all his normal abilitites including breath weapon, but loses flight). They also grant resistance to all forms of damage to any true dragon that wears them, and amply the dragons breath weapon making it ignore resistance (and/ or any other abilities you want).'

I only suggest the 'dragon helm' option if your PCs can handle it. It also lets you tie this adventure into an ongoing story arc of the PCs dealing with all 5 dragon emissaries (all who wear a fabled helm) and the dragonlord himself.
 

MechaPilot

Explorer
[MENTION=6716779]Zardnaar[/MENTION]

The whole gist of your OP seems to be this: "X & Y feat are broken, not because of their own design, but because you can make them better by expending other resources or possessing magic items."

This is true of everything in the game, and it could easily be attributed in reverse to say that +X items, bless, or any ability that grants advantage (and thereby negates disadvantage) is broken.
 

Zardnaar

Legend
@Zardnaar

The whole gist of your OP seems to be this: "X & Y feat are broken, not because of their own design, but because you can make them better by expending other resources or possessing magic items."

This is true of everything in the game, and it could easily be attributed in reverse to say that +X items, bless, or any ability that grants advantage (and thereby negates disadvantage) is broken.

Perhaps but those feats are always in char op builds and there is nothing equivalent for the other fighting styles.
 

Zardnaar

Legend
@Zardnaar

The whole gist of your OP seems to be this: "X & Y feat are broken, not because of their own design, but because you can make them better by expending other resources or possessing magic items."

This is true of everything in the game, and it could easily be attributed in reverse to say that +X items, bless, or any ability that grants advantage (and thereby negates disadvantage) is broken.

Perhaps but those feats are always in char op builds and there is nothing equivalent for the other fighting styles.

Combos are always the problem going back to AD&D. A lot of things in 3E were not broken all by themselves (a few spells were).
 

MechaPilot

Explorer
Perhaps but those feats are always in char op builds and there is nothing equivalent for the other fighting styles.

Combos are always the problem going back to AD&D. A lot of things in 3E were not broken all by themselves (a few spells were).

I don't look for online char-op builds. What I do know is that I have two self-professed power-gamers at my table. One of them is very much obsessed with number porn and will not ever pick a race that does not grant a +2 modifier to his class' primary stat. None of the players at my table have ever taken either the Great Weapon Master or Sharshooter feats.

And it's not that i don't allow those feats. I do. I don't allow +X weapons and armor (I had to change Ironfang from a +2 Weapon to one that crits on a 19-20 to compensate), but the party has a dedicated NPC cleric healer who blesses the party, and I have just never seen it. They don't even talk about those feats.
 

Zardnaar

Legend
I don't look for online char-op builds. What I do know is that I have two self-professed power-gamers at my table. One of them is very much obsessed with number porn and will not ever pick a race that does not grant a +2 modifier to his class' primary stat. None of the players at my table have ever taken either the Great Weapon Master or Sharshooter feats.

And it's not that i don't allow those feats. I do. I don't allow +X weapons and armor (I had to change Ironfang from a +2 Weapon to one that crits on a 19-20 to compensate), but the party has a dedicated NPC cleric healer who blesses the party, and I have just never seen it. They don't even talk about those feats.


They can't be that good at powergaming then. The WotC figured out the 5E power builds within 2-3 months and nothing released since has really changed it at least for the big hitting builds (PAM+GWM, SS+CE, Sorlock).

In 5E the +2 to a racial stat doesn't matter that much unless you rill dice as 16/16 is often better than 15/17 and the feats that grant a +1 bonus are not as good as feats like PAM, SS, Shield Master or a plain ol +2 to an ability score.

My players often stick the +2 part on a 14 or a 12 to have a 14 or 16 after racial mods.

The half elf is very sexy for charisma based classes and the default array. 2 16's and a 14 can be had.

Rolled stats changes that theory if you roll a 16 or an 18 and you can have a 18 or 20 out the gate is a bit different.
 

MechaPilot

Explorer
They can't be that good at powergaming then.

Oh no. They're quite good at it. They love finding what they think are broken combinations. I like to say "they are as good at powergaming as I let them be;" which is part of the reason I don't allow +X weapons and armors. They just don't need them to be competitive (also I find "fade into the background" benefits like that to be boring. I'd rather see their excitement on a crit, or get the flavor of them actively using a special ability).



In 5E the +2 to a racial stat doesn't matter that much unless you rill dice. . . .

My players often stick the +2 part on a 14 or a 12 to have a 14 or 16 after racial mods.

I let my players take the better of 4d6 drop the lowest or point buy. Almost all of them had a starting primary stat score between 17 and 19.
 

Zardnaar

Legend
Oh no. They're quite good at it. They love finding what they think are broken combinations. I like to say "they are as good at powergaming as I let them be;" which is part of the reason I don't allow +X weapons and armors. They just don't need them to be competitive (also I find "fade into the background" benefits like that to be boring. I'd rather see their excitement on a crit, or get the flavor of them actively using a special ability).




I let my players take the better of 4d6 drop the lowest or point buy. Almost all of them had a starting primary stat score between 17 and 19.

They +2s racial makes more sense then.
For a solo game I let the wife use 4d6 through to 9d6 keep the best 3. It was from 1E UA
 

A good Intelligence score sure would come in handy to check if @Flamestrike changed up any of the stat blocks of the monsters you're facing.

Gave blinsight to the ghouls, an extra 1d6 fire damage to the helmed horrors, changed up spells on the casters, and the dragon is a caster variant. Nothing big, and plenty of room to tweak them further.

Perhaps but those feats are always in char op builds and there is nothing equivalent for the other fighting styles.

Which is intentional. A GWM/ GWS fighter is giving up on AC (from 2-6 points from his shield and defence style, and dependent on magic items in the world) to deal greater damage. He's also taken GWM as an ASI which weakes his skills and saves (simply by not taking the ASI) and makes him less versatile (he's now pidgeonholed into using heavy weapons).

If he's placed in situations where he can reliably use GWM every single round, this matters less. If he's forced to draw a handaxe and use that (ranged) or fails a str save by 1 or an athletics check by 1 then it starts to bite harder.

Combos are always the problem going back to AD&D. A lot of things in 3E were not broken all by themselves (a few spells were).

Combing bless with GWM isnt a broken combo; its good teamwork that is (situationally) very potent.

Its no different from the two party barbarianscombining with one taking Wolf totem, and the other taking bear totem, Sentinel and GWM, and the two working in tandem. The Wolf barbarian grants the Bearbarian advantage while he rages, and the bearbarian takes half damage from all attacks and gets to clobber anyone who attacks the wolf-barian via sentinel.

It encourages the party to work together with the sum being greater than the parts.
 

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