D&D 5E High Level Zealot Barbarians Immortal?

Fanaelialae · Nov 16, 2017

Arial Black said:
It could be argued that way, but not convincingly.

Rules already exist for the same effect stacking/not stacking. The new duration replaces the old. This is why we can't claim to be immune to incoming long duration debuffs if we are on the last round of a current debuff.

The effect of using your bonus action to Rage while you are already Raging is that it lasts longer at the cost of another use of the Rage ability, and you don't get many. It makes sense (so, I'm Raging longer! What of it? I paid the price!), and can hardly be seen as an immoral act or a cheezy meta-game exploit.

The rules let you do what they say they let you do. It would take a line forbidding you to use a bonus action to Rage while already Raging to prevent it. It already has permission simply by saying what you can do and how you do it.

Sure, a DM could houserule a nerf, but why? He's not getting anything for free. He's probably losing out on some rounds of duration over the whole day. Let him do as the rules say; it makes sense in-world, he's paying the cost, nothing has gone wrong here that needs the nerfbat.

I disagree. It's a common sense reading, albeit a very rules-lawyery one.

"On your turn you can enter a rage as a bonus action."

You can't enter something if you are already in it. Say you are standing in your home. How do you re-enter it without leaving it first? You can't. Similarly, you can't enter a rage if you are already in a rage (I'm speaking of the emotion in this instance, not the mechanic). It wouldn't make logical sense.

As such, it has nothing to do with stacking of effects. It's merely how the activation clause is phrased.

That said, I don't think it's overpowered either. I've seen many barbarians at my table, and I'm not certain I've seen the duration come into play ever. I don't think it's that big a deal, and I don't think running out the clock is the way to go unless you find a way to first incapacitate the barbarian (ie, banishment).

That said, at 20th level the barbarian gains the ability for infinite rages. While I'm not one to say an ability is broken based on a capstone feature, there are probably some DMs who would object to the idea of a 20th level barbarian raging 16 hours a day without even so much as a break in between.

Rule It as you see fit. All I'm saying is that the rules can be read such that it isn't permitted to enter a rage while in a rage.

jaelis · Nov 16, 2017

Fanaelialae said:
That said, at 20th level the barbarian gains the ability for infinite rages.

Is that correct? Oh of course, in the table not the text. Barb 20 is so good...

Arial Black · Nov 17, 2017

Fanaelialae said:
I disagree. It's a common sense reading, albeit a very rules-lawyery one.

"On your turn you can enter a rage as a bonus action."

You can't enter something if you are already in it. Say you are standing in your home. How do you re-enter it without leaving it first? You can't. Similarly, you can't enter a rage if you are already in a rage (I'm speaking of the emotion in this instance, not the mechanic). It wouldn't make logical sense.

As such, it has nothing to do with stacking of effects. It's merely how the activation clause is phrased.

That said, I don't think it's overpowered either. I've seen many barbarians at my table, and I'm not certain I've seen the duration come into play ever. I don't think it's that big a deal, and I don't think running out the clock is the way to go unless you find a way to first incapacitate the barbarian (ie, banishment).

That said, at 20th level the barbarian gains the ability for infinite rages. While I'm not one to say an ability is broken based on a capstone feature, there are probably some DMs who would object to the idea of a 20th level barbarian raging 16 hours a day without even so much as a break in between.

Rule It as you see fit. All I'm saying is that the rules can be read such that it isn't permitted to enter a rage while in a rage.

If I fail my save against hold person then I'm paralysed for the duration. I have the 'paralysed' condition. I'm in the final round of that duration (I keep failing those saves!) when the caster casts hold person on me again. "Aha! You cant 'give' me a condition I already have! Therefore, I'm immune to any effect that gives me that condition, even if someone wishes me to be paralysed for a year!" Right?

Wrong.

"The effects of different spells add together while the durations of those spells overlap. The effects of the same spell cast multiple times don't combine, however. Instead, the most potent effect—such as the highest bonus—from those castings applies while their durations overlap."

This principle is not limited to cast spells. If you Rage while Raging, you don't add the Rage damage bonus twice, but otherwise you are affected by both; 'Raging' is not a condition.

Fanaelialae · Nov 17, 2017

Arial Black said:
If I fail my save against hold person then I'm paralysed for the duration. I have the 'paralysed' condition. I'm in the final round of that duration (I keep failing those saves!) when the caster casts hold person on me again. "Aha! You cant 'give' me a condition I already have! Therefore, I'm immune to any effect that gives me that condition, even if someone wishes me to be paralysed for a year!" Right?

Wrong.

"The effects of different spells add together while the durations of those spells overlap. The effects of the same spell cast multiple times don't combine, however. Instead, the most potent effect—such as the highest bonus—from those castings applies while their durations overlap."

This principle is not limited to cast spells. If you Rage while Raging, you don't add the Rage damage bonus twice, but otherwise you are affected by both; 'Raging' is not a condition.

Did you even read what I wrote? You're response makes me feel like you read at most half of it and imagined the other half.

Once again, it is specifically the phrasing of the activation clause that makes this the case for rage (arguably). It's NOT a matter of the durations overlapping, as I've stated in my previous two posts. It's a question of whether you can enter a rage when you are already raging (you can refer to my previous post for the explanation).

This in no way applies to casting Hold Person on someone who is already under the effects of Hold Person. There the rules are quite clear on what happens.

thethain · Nov 17, 2017

I would be inclined to agree with the rules on effects with same name stacking. You can rage while raging, it doesn't add to the duration, it replaces it. So if you had 1 round left, and raged, you would have 10 rounds left, not 11. But you could rage again.

Using the term "enter" as some qualifier that prevents reapplication is really misguided and as noted would apply to dozens of spells. For example, You could keep "Charm Person" on your allies, to cause them to be immune to any effect which states "Becomes charmed" such as hypnotic pattern. Because you can't become something you already are. Good luck finding a DM at a table who agrees with that interpretation.

Failed-saving-throw · Nov 26, 2017

@Hawk Diesel

Hawk Diesel said:
@OzDragon Yes, but let's consider for a moment. 9 times out of 10, a barbarian is going to rage before entering combat. They wade into the fray already carrying the largest pool of HP to soak damage. They got toe to toe with one or more combatants. Let's say 3 rounds in they take a blow that would leave them at or below 0 HP. Barbarians already have an ability to make a special constitution save and instead go to 1 HP. Let's say the barbarian makes that save twice, maybe 3 times (as more attacks hit) before finally failing. We can say 4-5 rounds pass total since the start of combat. Now instead of going unconscious, they can stay up. Yes they can continue to fight and soak up damage, but they have 5 rounds max before they finally succumb. And by the end of it you have to A) hope you have a healer with spells left, B) have a cure wounds potion, goodberry, or healer kit ready, or C) hope you have a cleric with Raise Dead (since the Zealot doesn't need the material cost for the spell). Is it a powerful ability? Yes. But it's still limited enough in terms of time/duration that it really only works out to a few rounds of being functional until they need some kind of healing.

Why would you say they have 5 rounds max? At lvl 15 a barbarian gets persistent rage, plus 20th level infinite rages, plus the fact that relentless rage is worded in such a way that it doesn't have to be used until you are in the last round of your rage allowing them to effectively be in rage state forever. Only thing that would kill it then is if it took its hp in damage or died of exhaustion. The death by exhaustion would take 6 days and as for death by full hp damage in a single hit, well that's just not going to happen for a level 20 barbarian with easily 200 hp.

Now combo that with the periapt of wound closure and a decent means to fight your target and you have a barbarian that is essentially unkillable aside from power word kill or some other rare few instances. Pretty sure this barbarian is the only character that could fight almost all boss fights solo by lvl 15 even if it would take an insane amount of turns.

For further cheese, combo this barb at level 20 with a ring of spell storing with some castings of rope trick in it that you set up as action on first round before raging and you have a barbarian that for an hour is just straight up immortal to non caster enemies.

Hawk Diesel · Nov 26, 2017

As pointed out earlier in the thread, persistant rage only prevents your rage from ending early it doesn't change the duration of Rage as being one minute

Failed-saving-throw · Nov 26, 2017

[MENTION=59848]Hawk Diesel[/MENTION]
Yeahp still only lasts one minute but fighting most bosses 1v1 you essentially have a round leeway at the end that you can use things like the half orcs return to 1 hp, relentless rage, potions etc. That doesn't even consider using safe space tactics like mordenkainen's mansion, rope trick, leomund's hut etc. With this barb you are unkillable for those 10 rounds of combat. That means there's only 1 round every 10 that you need to worry about dying and with proper prep you can have that round completely secured. Just with being a half orc you would have 20 rounds of combat guaranteed. Pretty much all fights will have ended long before that.

Hawk Diesel · Nov 27, 2017

Failed-saving-throw said:
[MENTION=59848]Hawk Diesel[/MENTION]
Yeahp still only lasts one minute but fighting most bosses 1v1 you essentially have a round leeway at the end that you can use things like the half orcs return to 1 hp, relentless rage, potions etc. That doesn't even consider using safe space tactics like mordenkainen's mansion, rope trick, leomund's hut etc. With this barb you are unkillable for those 10 rounds of combat. That means there's only 1 round every 10 that you need to worry about dying and with proper prep you can have that round completely secured. Just with being a half orc you would have 20 rounds of combat guaranteed. Pretty much all fights will have ended long before that.

You talk about fighting a boss 1v1, but then mention spells. Either the fight isn't 1v1, or you aren't using a barbarian because even multiclassed they can't cast while raging. Also, the half-orc's Relentless Endurance and the Barbarian's Relentless Rage ability wouldn't be the get out of jail free card you imagine. With those abilities, if you take an attack that would reduce you to 0 or fewer HP, you instead are at 1 HP. A Zealot Barbarian can't benefit from those abilities if they are already at 0 or fewer HP.

Failed-saving-throw · Dec 2, 2017

[MENTION=59848]Hawk Diesel[/MENTION]
You don't need to multiclass to use a ring of spell storing or many other items. Then the inability for a barbarian to cast spells is also only while the barbarian is raging. It's possible to start a fight, action spell then bonus action rage. Don't know why you would think its not possible for that to happen and not be 1v1? Also on the relentless rage and endurance the way the wording is read I can see an argument being made that it can occur whenever you suffer damage while at 0 HP and still have rage not being broken by dropping unconscious.

Also even just the combo of rope trick and the 15th level ability is enough to keep a barbarian unkillable for 40 rounds. Personally have never been in or even really heard of a 1v1 combat lasting that long, travel time in a fight notwithstanding. Then there's the fact that a 3 man party of zealot, wizard and cleric at level 15+ becomes essentially unbeatable with the wizard being able to prep safe spaces, the cleric heal and the zealot just be a 1 minute invulnerable monster