D&D 3E/3.5 Thoughts of a 3E/4E powergamer on starting to play 5E

Ancalagon

Dusty Dragon
Anecdote: I saw some player at the FLGS last month rage-quit a game. He wanted to lie to a guard about what he was doing, "what do you tell him?" the DM asked. He just rolled and said "I rolled a 17, so something he believes me". When the DM tried to get him to make up something, anything, he threw his dice and said "I rolled a f***ing 17! That totally beats his best possible score! If you're going to railroad me, I'm done!". And he left.

Some players just want to roll. Some DMs don't want them to roll well. Player agency is one thing; but the DM is a 'player' too, so the two 'agencies' should be in balance. Sadly, I see a lot of imbalance, and most of it boils down to "the Dice Rules All"

I had a somewhat similar incident happen to me. This was in warhammer, and one of the PCs was a militiaman - as in he literally was in the militia and had occasional duties to fulfill. Great, a little hook for storytelling!

So the PCs are hired to go on a week long mission, and well it's overlapping with milita duty. This is a mild roleplaying challenge that I'm giving the player, to give him a chance to be quick on his feet. There are *soooo* many ways this situation could be resovled: Bribe the sergeant. Make a deal with the sergeant (double duty next week!). Plead with the sergeant. Trade shifts with someone. Just don't show up and suck up the punishment. etc etc.

Instead, the player almost quit on the spot...

Some people - I think it's a minority, but it's not a rarity - just seem to have a very very limited social toolset. They can't talk their way out of problems, convince someone etc... So they take a high diplomacy so they don't have to do it in game. I still am leery of the introduction of "social skills" in D&D. It's clearly "realistic" - some of us have better social skills than others no? - but it has strange effects on the game.
 

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pemerton

Legend
Ambushes are bad. You are fighting at a time and a place of the enemy's choosing. Clearly the enemy thinks it has a good chance of winning, otherwise they would have left the party pass

<snip>

Unless this is one of those particularly dastardly ambush where the escape route has been cut off, sheer common sense demands a fighting withdrawal. The enemy has you *where it wants you* and thinks it will win. Why on earth would you want to play that game?!? Get out, now. Don't wait to see.

<snip>

So... Why do PCs often *not* run from this situation? Well...

1: The players are dumb. Maybe, but probably not.
2: The DM plays the ambushers stupidly - as in they are launching attacks on people they really shouldn't, they don't ask themselves "can we win?" - AND the players know this.
3: The players are metagaming. "Surely the DM wouldn't set a deadly ambush on our way to the great dungeon of doom? This is just a "warm up fight", we can take this".

So it's not an edition problem, it's a bad gaming problem.
I think you've left out option (4): the players think that fighting makes for a more fun game than running. Depending on how the game handles fighting, vs how it handles running; how XP are awarded across each choice; how the GM handles pursuit by ambushers; etc, the players might even be right.

There's also option (5): the players know how the GM will adjudicate combat, and so can form a rational combat strategy (even if the odds aren't that good) but don't know how the GM will adjudicate running away, and so can't form any sort of strategy at all.

In classic dungeon crawling D&D (OD&D, 1st ed AD&D, B/X), where the rules for running are fairly clear (drop treasure or food and you'll probably get away), the GMing conventions around pursuit are fairly clear (in general, wandering monsters are a once-and-done affair, so if you escape around a corner, and certainly if you escape out of the dungeon, you won't be hunted down), and the reward structure is fairly clear (the XP for fighting wandering monsters aren't very much, because they tend to have little or no treasure), then I think it's not that uncommon to see players who are used to that style running way.

In contemporary D&D, though, the rules for running can tend to be very uncertain (sometimes it mightn't be anything more sophisticated than comparing movement rates, and there is nothing comparable to the 1st ed AD&D rule of auto-evade on surprise if desired); the conventions around pursuit are also much less clear, but a greater emphasis on "verisimilitude" plus a greater emphasis on epic plotlines means that being hunted down is more likely to be a real possibility; and the XP rules tend to mean that fighting ambushers is no less XP-rewarding than fighting people you have ambushed. In those circumstances, I'm not surprised that running away is less common.
 

happyhermit

Adventurer
I think you've left out option (4): the players think that fighting makes for a more fun game than running. Depending on how the game handles fighting, vs how it handles running; how XP are awarded across each choice; how the GM handles pursuit by ambushers; etc, the players might even be right.

There's also option (5): the players know how the GM will adjudicate combat, and so can form a rational combat strategy (even if the odds aren't that good) but don't know how the GM will adjudicate running away, and so can't form any sort of strategy at all.

Those options both seem to be #3, Metagaming. How the system handles XP, pursuit, etc. How the GM will adjudicate. Like it or not those are metagaming.
 

pemerton

Legend
Those options both seem to be #3, Metagaming. How the system handles XP, pursuit, etc. How the GM will adjudicate. Like it or not those are metagaming.
I don't care whether they're metagaming or not. If I'm playing a game, I'm going to engage with the mechanics of that game.

If I don't know how I would even go about performing an action for which the stakes are very high (like retreating) I'm going to be hesitant to declare it.

If I know the game will reward me for choice A but not choice B, then everything else being equal I will choose A.

The reason that players back in Gygax's day were more ready to declare retreats is because the framework for adjudication, for ascertaining consequences, and for awarding or withholding XP, were all pretty clear and all served to make retreat a tenable option. In every respect, post-Gygaxian D&D has reduced the clarity. Is it any surprise that players have changed their decision-making in response?
 

happyhermit

Adventurer
I don't care whether they're metagaming or not. If I'm playing a game, I'm going to engage with the mechanics of that game.

...

I specifically put no value judgement on "metagaming" in that post. I was simply pointing out that the poster you were quoting didn't "leave out" as you say, your #4 and #5, they are actually just other types of metagaming.

Where you say "If I'm playing a game, I'm going to engage with the mechanics of that game." Others could just as validly say; " I don't care if it's sub-optimal or not, If I'm playing a Roleplaying game I'm going to ROLEplay."

Many of the things you pointed out such as making decisions based on how XP is received for example, obviously tend to lead to decisions that make less sense for the characters and story than if one more strictly considers the characters motivations.

Some people care about, some don't, obviously.
 

pemerton

Legend
I specifically put no value judgement on "metagaming" in that post. I was simply pointing out that the poster you were quoting didn't "leave out" as you say, your #4 and #5, they are actually just other types of metagaming.

Where you say "If I'm playing a game, I'm going to engage with the mechanics of that game." Others could just as validly say; " I don't care if it's sub-optimal or not, If I'm playing a Roleplaying game I'm going to ROLEplay."

Many of the things you pointed out such as making decisions based on how XP is received for example, obviously tend to lead to decisions that make less sense for the characters and story than if one more strictly considers the characters motivations.

Some people care about, some don't, obviously.
I feel you've somewhat missed my point. It relates back to the discussion with [MENTION=6801328]Elfcrusher[/MENTION] about player agency. I'm also not sure how you are both denying making value judgements and saying that decisions make less sense. That looks like a (negative or pejorative) value judgement to me. (And [MENTION=23]Ancalagon[/MENTION] said that the issue of retreating is a "bad gaming" problem. In agreeing with that, you seem to be sharing in the (negative, pejorative) value judgement.)

It's not a necessary feature of an RPG that mechanical concerns and "motivational" concerns cut across one another. When the game was invented, by Gygax and Arneson, they didn't. In many contemporary games (eg 4e, BW, DW) they don't.

The reason that they tend to cut across one another in 2nd ed AD&D is because 2nd ed AD&D adds basically no mechanics to Gygax's game, yet assumes that players will play characters with motivations very different from the dungeon-raiding that is the principal focus of Gygaxian play.

To apply this to retreating: if I, in playing my character, don't actually know what my chances of retreat are, and have good reason to think that if I retreat I will be hunted down, but do know, roughly, what my chances of success in battle are, and furthermore I know that battle is not certain death, then it is rational for me to battle. In other words, one consequence of having relative certainty around the combat rules, yet relative obscurity around retreating, is that fighting battles becomes a part of most rational character's motivations.

In real life, of course, people retreat because they don't have the requisite degree of certainty about combat. If you make a RPG in which combat is as uncertain as retreat - say, Runequest or low-level Rolemaster - then you might get more retreating.

Or you could flip it around: make the rules around retreat as clear as the rules around combat - which Gygaxian D&D does - and you will get more retreating.

As thing stand in post-Gygaxian D&D, though, you are asking players to divorce their sense of character motivation from the actual mechanical levers available to them in the play of the game. How is that good RPG design?

EDIT to make this more concrete:

13th Age has a rule that players can declare a retreat, and the GM is obliged to narrate their narrow escape, dragging fallen comrades with them, etc; but the GM is also then entitled to narrate a significant story loss.

That's a mechanic that aligns player mechanical levers with effective character motivations.

In 5e, you could allow a player to spend Inspiration to escape without needing to make a check; we might add that players without inspiration canhave their PCs come along for the ride provided they're in the minority rather than the majority, but they are automatically reduced to zero hp as they flee, and have to be dragged out by their comrades.

Or, if you don't want to put it all into the metagame, you could have a rule more like the Gygaxian one (and Burning Wheel has a somewhat similar rule): once fighting characters are out of engagement distance (10 feet in a dungeon, 10 yards outdoors) then initiative is no longer tracked, attacks may not be declared without having to trigger a new combat sequence, and the evasion & pursuit system is engaged (indoors it's based on movement speeds and distractions; outdoors it's based on a moderately complex percentile chart). In 5e, this could easily be an aspect of the exploration mechanics, which would also make rangers especially good at leading effective retreats. Which seems to fit nicely with the archetype.
 
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S'mon

Legend
As [MENTION=463]S'mon[/MENTION] pointed out in that thread (I think - or another thread around the same time), in 4e imposing an ad hoc d10 of damage (at 1st level) or an ad hoc 4d12 (at 30th level) is not the sort of punishment that it would be in other versions of D&D. For this sort of reason, that follows from the extent of player resources, the GM can be far more loose, and in many respects more permissive, in setting stakes for checks and finding out what happens.

I think 5e, at least from say 3rd level or above (once PCs aren't so fragile) might be amenable to being drifted in this sort of direction, but its resource structure (asymmetric across classes both in recovery times and in reliance on GM adjudication between spells and non-spells) could make it harder. I'm sure that [MENTION=97077]iserith[/MENTION] or S'mon could speak more to this if they have the time and inclination.

I remember talking about how in 4e out-of-combat damage functioned as flavour, because of how healing surges work, whereas in traditional D&D (pre Wands of Cure Light Wounds) it functions as resource attrition. 5e is somewhere in between, with its hit dice, but somewhat closer to old style - a 4e PC
can typically heal with surges from 0 to full 2-4 times/day, whereas a 5e PC can typically
heal with hd from 0 to just under full 1/day. If you have fewer encounters/day, and make short rests easier, then you can drift it more to a 4e feel.

5e is very flexible - my online 5e game was originally run much like 1e, with slower healing, but I've let it drift more towards 4e style fantasy superheroes at high level. It has low magic. My tabletop 5e game by contrast is high magic (using Pathfinder APs) with 15 minute short rests that give more of a 4e feel and ensures that Short Rest dependent classes match up well with Long Rest classes over a
3-4 encounter day with frequent 'spike' encounters.

5e is also very amenable to minmaxing with feats & multiclassing, so I don't really know what the OP is complaining about. :)
 
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In 4E and high level optimized 3E, it was difficult for a DM to generate running away scenarios in the first place. 4E PCs has an annoying and astonishing ability to win fights they shouldn't win. It might take every resource and healing surge the party had, but a 4E party could win an encounter 8-10 levels higher than the party. I've seen it happen. It would be a slow grindy struggle, but very doable. 4E players tended not to run away, and throwing an "unwinnable" encounter could have unintended results. As for 3E, never underestimate what a 11+ level optimized Wizard is capable of.
 

5e is also very amenable to minmaxing with feats & multiclassing, so I don't really know what the OP is complaining about. :)

The results are a bit less dramatic than they would be in 3E or to a lesser extent 4E. Multiclassing has some flavor issues(yes, that does matter, and it was arguably worse in 3E), and in terms of practical optimization there are more issues than theoretical optimization. In practical optimization, you have to factor in ability score bumps, when you get a second attack, and most importantly dead levels. Making test characters with Multiclassing, dead levels was the big issue. The darkness Monk/Warlock build for example has two more or less dead levels when you do the Warlock levels. Do you do it as soon as practical after Monk level 3, or do you wait until after levels 4 and 5 for the ability score bump and second attack. Either way you have to wait until level 5 or 7 before your main concept is online. I prefer to build characters that are reasonably optimized and conceptually functional from level 1 and have as few dead levels as possible. That being said Multiclassing is a powerful tool in 5E because the classes are all so front loaded, and some classes kind of stop getting good stuff past a certain point.

As for feats, I find 5E underwhelming. The having to choose between +2 to your attack stat and a feat is a real drag, as getting your main stat to 20 is generally the bigger priority. Assuming getting that 20 as soon as possible is a priority, and you aren't rolling stats, for most classes that means you aren't taking your first feat until level 12. Unless your a variant Human, which the vast majority of my characters are, which simply means you get one feat and have to wait until 12 for another one.
 

I strongly disagree. 3E was the biggest tent D&D ever had, and I'd argue that 1E/2E was a bigger tent than 5E as well.
...

Ever run theater of the mind combat in 3e... No?

Well then excuse me if I don't take your word as fact on how big that tent was. Sure, it could be squeezed into better than 4e, but it wasn't comfy let me tell you. :erm:

I would argue that 5e probably has the biggest "tent" that D&D has designed, based on the fact that it isn't actively hostile to any style of play that D&D has ever catered to. Especially when one takes into account optional rules in the DMG.

Now, it wouldn't actually bother me if certain play-style were discouraged necessarily... but 5e really doesn't.

A lot of people tend to make the mistake of assuming that "matches my preferences best" equals "biggest tent".
 

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