Would the spell "Alter Self" give those using it the ability to reproduce as what they've changed into?

I've ruled in the past that it requires a polymorph or higher level spell to allow this.

(Yes, it has come up in-game.)

Starfox said:

However you do, this should never be used as an excuse for a DM "gotcha" of any kind. Sticking a pc with sticky issues of polymorph reversion abortion, or in general any kind of pregnancy issues in RPGs is just not a good idea, in my not-so-humble opinion. Even unplanned fatherhood, tough a staple of stories such as Arthur/Mordred, is a too strong a subject for a RPG.

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I have the opposite opinion. By this you seem to imply that sexuality and promiscuity aren't very strong subjects and that your game is friendly to include those, but unfriendly if anything so controversial as a pregnancy occurs as a result of sexual intercourse.

To me this is like a game that wants there to be rampant violence and violence as the preferred means of conflict resolution, but finds genocide, fratricide, murder, or even collateral damage to the innocent 'too strong of a subject'.

The first time I realized this was by accident. The PC's were hired by a rich merchant to deal with a group of Hobgoblin bandits that were robbing and killing travelers on a pass. The PC's tracked the bandits to their cave, and proceeded to slaughter the hobgoblins in what was to everyone completely obvious and ordinary behavior. They got to the back of the cave, to what I'd jotted down as 'tribal common room', and I described the hobgoblin females and children huddled against the back wall in terror and suddenly for everyone (even me) there was an, "Oh.", moment that we'd never had before. The last time we'd encountered this situation in game, we'd been like 10 and it didn't phase us. Now, at 15, we realized just how serious what we'd just done was and how serious the scenario I'd created had been. "What do we do now?"

I, as DM, had no answers. I didn't even realize until the moment it happened that I had asked a question. Had I wanted to, had I considered it, I could have avoided this moment by assuming that the bandits didn't bring their women and children with them, that they weren't really planning to live here, and removed them from the scene so that neither I nor the players ever thought about it. But ever since that moment, I've realized that my game isn't less morally problematic if I do so, but more problematic and ought to be - if we were in our right minds (which we weren't until that point) - more offensive.

My suspicion is that in a game where sex happens, but unplanned pregnancies don't, the game is much like that - we don't even realize we are posing problems. The fact that we don't realize it, doesn't mean that we aren't. The same problem was posed, and answered, when our players were 10 years old. We just thought very little on it, but the absence of thought made the problem more acute and not less.

Your game became serious when it featured sex and/or violence. You might as well be mature about it. If you don't want to deal with the pregnancies, banish the sex from your game. If you don't want to deal with that awkward moment when you realize that the people you've been killing are people too, banish violence from you game. But to banish those moments from your game and keep the sex and violence, I don't see how you can justify: "Come glut yourself on escapist sex and murder. No consequences!", isn't less offensive or less emotionally problematic than a player realizing he's just become a father, any more than any fiction that trivializes difficult problems is less offensive or less emotionally problematic.

So you are supposing that abortion or unplanned pregnancy is going to be too much for your player to handle because of their life history? Ok, suppose that that life history is a father than abandoned them, or a family split by adultery. Is it going to be less emotional for that player to have another player screwing around without consequences? The topic is itself already a 'strong', which is why I dare say many tables do banish sex from the table.

Celebrim (post #12), just beautifully written, not gonna quote it its too long for that.

Reproduction should be defined in the game. I mean, the monsters got here somehow, right?

I'm okay with creatures being magically transformed and then reproducing with those now newly compatible. But the rules should have a definite design. Gold Dragons transform into humans, sleep around, and 9 months later (maybe years?) out pops a 1/2 human 1/2 dragon baby. That makes me think of the miniseries "V" more than anything else, but that dragon thing has been around awhile in D&D.

I also tend to agree with [MENTION=5868]Olgar Shiverstone[/MENTION] that Alter Self is far too low level a spell for these potential results. But perhaps Alter Self could be limited to Humanoids only? That actually makes a good bit of sense given all the inbreeding between races in D&D.

Best thread title in a while, you perverts. : )

Celebrim said:

...you seem to imply that sexuality and promiscuity aren't very strong subjects and that your game is friendly to include those, but unfriendly if anything so controversial as a pregnancy occurs as a result of sexual intercourse.

To me this is like a game that wants there to be rampant violence and violence as the preferred means of conflict resolution, but finds genocide, fratricide, murder, or even collateral damage to the innocent 'too strong of a subject.

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I agree with your assertion here - I don't bring up the subjects of "genocide, fratricide, murder, or even collateral damage to the innocent" in my games either. RPGs are escapism for me. I feel the this is the mature view here. I actually used to agree with you maybe 20 years back (around age 25). Back then I felt that RPGs could have some educational or cathartic value. I no longer think so. RPGs are now a game to me, entertainment, escapism, storytelling.

Then again my players might be ahead of me here - some of them think that rampant violence is something to be avoided at all costs even in RPGs.

Pregnancy can be the result of sexual intercourse, but I'd always check with the player first to see if they are ok with such a long-ranging subplot. Same goes for fratricide - if a player is interested in a rivalry with a close relative I'm ok with that, but I'd not force it on anyone. Hm, I actually did that not so long ago as a subplot in The Skinsaw Murders, so that's not an absolute ban (one of the PCs was the sister of the main antagonist). I did ask the player, hinting at the kind of plot, but did not give a fully informed choice. Genocide, murder, and collateral damage to innocents is what makes villains into villains and not something PCs do except under exceptional circumstances. And even villains are generally allowed to actually do these things on camera - the PCs most always get a chance to stop them.

howandwhy99 said:

Reproduction should be defined in the game. I mean, the monsters got here somehow, right?

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I disagree. I feel this is very setting-dependent, and defining it too closely in the rules would limit the range of possible settings. It is a bit like immortality - there is only one way to reduce age in all of 3.5 or Pathfinder and that is reincarnation, and that feels more like an oversight. This does not mean that there is no immortality in particular settings, just that it is GM-level setting power. Sexual compatibility is the same in my opinion.

[MENTION=4937]Celebrim[/MENTION]

The ethics of violence vs. the ethics of sex isn't why sex is kept out of most RPGs. It also has little to do with the western fascination with the idea that gory decapitation is okay but naked bodies are taboo (okay, a little bit but it's not the whole thing). Sex, and especially pregnancy and the like, generally have no place at the gaming table and here's why:

Violence is something everyone can relate to. It's an impersonal and by definition anti-social way of solving problems. Let's go over that again. This is a game where one person, the DM, presents problems which the players are tasked with solving by any means possible. Sometimes they can do this through dialog, trickery, or general cleverness but most games and indeed most of the system center around solving most problems with violence. If the orcs are raiding the town then the orcs are the problem. Killing the orcs solves the problem.

The other benefit of violence is that most people don't feel strongly about how you go about it until you really get into some truly lurid descriptions. Statements like "I burn him with fire" or "I stab him with my sword" without further elaboration generally don't create strong opinions or feelings in people. Though I'm sure you can come up with some near-torturous description of violence that makes your stomach crawl, most games avoid this.

Sex on the other hand is one of the dirty three subjects (along with religion and politics) you don't discuss at parties for good reason. People care have incredibly strong opinions about sex and almost never want to hear your opinions on it. It's such a personal matter that even people who are in long term loving relationships can have difficulty discussing it even in private. Even in the context of discussing the relationships of imaginary characters what one person finds appropriate will often be found disgusting by others. This is before we even get into the issues of pregnancy and perversions.

When you start playing with pregnancy you open an entirely new can of worms beyond the scope of sex. Now instead of just being five people solving problems and saving the world you have a living creature, your character's own flesh and seed, who they are now responsible for. This changes the dynamic of the game forever and not in a good way as the raising of a child, typically a mostly private matter between two parents, is now a public matter as they adventure around with their bestest friends saving the world. That is, if you don't get ye olde tyme magickal abortion and go through all the ethical dilemma and very deep seated feelings many people hold.

Lastly, when you introduce sex to your games you infinitely increase the "pervert factor" and now you must seriously worry about someone at the table getting sexual gratification from whatever is going on in the game and that is a one-way ticket to Awkwardville. Paraphilias can sneak into normal games too, sure, but the chance of it happening in a game with sex is like the difference between your chance of getting mugged in rural Iowa vs. your chance of getting mugged in north Philadelphia (for non-U.S. readers substitute an appropriate bucolic area and dangerous slum with which you are familiar respectively).

Starfox said:

I disagree. I feel this is very setting-dependent, and defining it too closely in the rules would limit the range of possible settings. It is a bit like immortality - there is only one way to reduce age in all of 3.5 or Pathfinder and that is reincarnation, and that feels more like an oversight. This does not mean that there is no immortality in particular settings, just that it is GM-level setting power. Sexual compatibility is the same in my opinion.

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I think it's important it be referred to in the rules even if it's ignored. Then it's specifically ignored. Besides, I wasn't referring to rules the players necessarily knew.

For the OP:
Just go with this, male or female things should work like this i.m.o. count the impregnation as if being impregnated in the original races form, while in a different form (like dragons).
So a Poly Dwarf who is a human has sex with a Normal Dwarf then there will be no offspring (to check what can impregnate what, check out the Book of Erotic Fantasy, there is a table there just for this). Poly Elf (human) and Normal Elf would result in a half elf.
If you want similar rules check out the Changeling in Races of Eberron (or Ebberon), it has a very specific cross race breeding explanation/ruling, or just sex change ruling, check it out.

Now for the side topic.

n00bdragon said:

@Celebrim

The ethics of violence vs. the ethics of sex isn't why sex is kept out of most RPGs. It also has little to do with the western fascination with the idea that gory decapitation is okay but naked bodies are taboo (okay, a little bit but it's not the whole thing). Sex, and especially pregnancy and the like, generally have no place at the gaming table and here's why:

Violence is something everyone can relate to. It's an impersonal and by definition anti-social way of solving problems. Let's go over that again. This is a game where one person, the DM, presents problems which the players are tasked with solving by any means possible. Sometimes they can do this through dialog, trickery, or general cleverness but most games and indeed most of the system center around solving most problems with violence. If the orcs are raiding the town then the orcs are the problem. Killing the orcs solves the problem.

The other benefit of violence is that most people don't feel strongly about how you go about it until you really get into some truly lurid descriptions. Statements like "I burn him with fire" or "I stab him with my sword" without further elaboration generally don't create strong opinions or feelings in people. Though I'm sure you can come up with some near-torturous description of violence that makes your stomach crawl, most games avoid this.

Sex on the other hand is one of the dirty three subjects (along with religion and politics) you don't discuss at parties for good reason. People care have incredibly strong opinions about sex and almost never want to hear your opinions on it. It's such a personal matter that even people who are in long term loving relationships can have difficulty discussing it even in private. Even in the context of discussing the relationships of imaginary characters what one person finds appropriate will often be found disgusting by others. This is before we even get into the issues of pregnancy and perversions.

When you start playing with pregnancy you open an entirely new can of worms beyond the scope of sex. Now instead of just being five people solving problems and saving the world you have a living creature, your character's own flesh and seed, who they are now responsible for. This changes the dynamic of the game forever and not in a good way as the raising of a child, typically a mostly private matter between two parents, is now a public matter as they adventure around with their bestest friends saving the world. That is, if you don't get ye olde tyme magickal abortion and go through all the ethical dilemma and very deep seated feelings many people hold.

Lastly, when you introduce sex to your games you infinitely increase the "pervert factor" and now you must seriously worry about someone at the table getting sexual gratification from whatever is going on in the game and that is a one-way ticket to Awkwardville. Paraphilias can sneak into normal games too, sure, but the chance of it happening in a game with sex is like the difference between your chance of getting mugged in rural Iowa vs. your chance of getting mugged in north Philadelphia (for non-U.S. readers substitute an appropriate bucolic area and dangerous slum with which you are familiar respectively).

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I wish to address this as a whole, as shot as possible. RPG gaming is a extreamly subjective, every players experiences, handles, iterprets -situations differently from another player in the same group in the same situation, and that is that.
We are different, we want different things, we need different things, every person is different every group is different. We are divers religiously, culturally, politically.

Sex, politics, religion ethics, morality and so on, the ones you mention as being avoided for the sake of escapism, many people love and use in there games.

Sex on the other hand is one of the dirty three subjects (along with religion and politics) - since when and where?
Religion in RPGs: They exist we have proof.
Sex: This is only an issue during a game if your 12.
Politics: That is where the fun starts for most gamers I know.

Some examples:
- Back in the day when I was ~18, we played a campaign where the DM introduced a young female character (~14 I think) who was looking for adventure and to leave the dreariness of her hamlet. That character to this day is the most memorable NPC I have ever encountered. General survival of that character became an integral part of the game, and it was fun (sort of a baby example).
- Trough Deck-'o-Many-Things we got a castle and servants. Thus our we established trade, alliances we planed a war on a country ruled by a red dragon, we transported ~300k Orcs (DM variant, ~3m tall with stats to boot) to start a war on the red dragons country,hell of alot of fun).
- Religion never come up, unless we want to kill gods. In addition its never an issue cause every one I ever played an RPG table top game with was a sane individual who doesn't believe in a "super-daddy up in the clouds who gets angry at you for eating the wrong thing".

Mod Note: Please see my post on page 4. ~Umbran

We came full circle , every group likes different things, different play styles, different systems, different settings.

PS: The only thing I didn't like about your comment was that you didn't use the words "I think its like this", "I feel its like that", simply I feel like you stated that every group is like that, and that sex, politics and religion is always bad in a game.

Sorry OP for derailing the thread, I will try to stop.