D&D 5E Sell 5th edition to a 4th edition fan...
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Manbearcat
Legend
It was inevitable that there was going to be unhelpful threadcrapping and edition-warring when you invoked 4e, but good effort nonetheless.
My advice would be to stay with 4e if your players understood what its built to do, understood how to get the most out of it or flex it to your needs, and are enjoying your 4e game for what it uniquely does that none of the other editions (low GM prep, tightly balanced, high-octane, big damn hero, thematic and tactical action/adventure at the scene-based level - rather than the adventuring day), including 5e, can support.
Conversely, if your players loved AD&D and are interested in the prospects of a better (in almost all ways except for perhaps the saving throw paradigm), modernized version of it (an AD&D 3e), then they should give 5e a go.
Actually, my comment is relevant to the conversation because it is about roles. You have managed to turn my comment into something it wasn't ment to be. I found 4th edition's emphasis on roles to be a constraint while 5th edition's less emphasis better. The OP is obviously looking for reasons to play 5th edition and what I have said is one of those reasons.
Cheers.
Players are getting a lot more tricks at Paragon and Epic Tier. I really notice it at 11th level, because most characters now have abilities that trigger off an action point. So the use of action points really lets things bog down, because an action point doesn't just mean one more action, it generally triggers a host of stuff.
Our core campaign only made it to 17th level, but we played an Epic one-shot. Combat took time. Now, it was probably more frustrating for our DM than for the players. I was having a blast, my Swordmage could mark practically the entire battlefield.
But even my 17th level Bard was often taking a fair amount of time resolving turns (and I know I did my best to resolve the turn quickly), because I would be enabling an ally to attack, moving minis across the board like a chessmaster and generally causing havoc. It's a lot of fun, but it is also time-intensive.
I'm A Banana
Potassium-Rich
Henry said:
I think the idea that the emphasis on minis supported a playstyle that showed more clearly the ability to run past the front line certainly could've helped "stickiness" become more of a requirement. It'll be interesting to see if the folks who start/re-start with 5e have actual problems in play with it or not.
The time intensive combats are something I did not like and I'm glad this edition moved away from that. The other thing that really bogged things down were all the situational modifiers that would pop up during combat.
I'm A Banana
Potassium-Rich
Neonchameleon
Legend
[MENTION=158]Henry[/MENTION], the problem with using the Withdraw option was that it put you on the wrong side of the fighter, having not attacked (and that assuming there were no walls in the way). Yes, next turn it might enable you to loop round past the fighter - but that's a very different matter from pressing on past the fighter - and still attacking the mage that turn. (Agreed on the Spiky Chains).
I have several disagreements here.
First, 5e hit points are ramped up over AD&D or 3e. As I mentioned a CR 1/2 Orc has 15hp. In 3.5 a CR 1/2 Orc had 5. CR2 Ogre: 59hp. 3.5 CR3 Ogre 29hp CR3 Minotaur: 76hp. 3.5 CR4 Minotaur: 39hp. CR8 Hydra 172hp. 9 Headed (CR8) 3.5 Hydra: 97hp. CR9 Fire Giant 172hp. 3.5 CR10 Fire Giant: 142hp. And CR means approximately the same thing betweem 3.5 and 5e (CR1 is 200XP - which is also the Medium XP value for 4 1st level PCs). I'm aware that it's not all the same way - and e.g. the Adult Red Dragon has more hp in 3.5.
I also don't see the argument that fighter DPR or even damage per attack in 5e is significantly higher than in 3.5. And you're still restricted to the single reaction per turn which means that you can't even stop a pack of goblins.
As for doing striker level damage to monsters on AoOs, some classes in 4e did that (notably the Slayer). On its own it wasn't normally enough partly because the 5ft Step/Shift/Withdraw options exist; one of the key Defender things was getting to hit people for attempting to withdraw rather than just for attempting to move, and another was for attempting to hit someone else in the battle line. (I do agree that the 4e PHB fighter could be overkill - which is why it was the stickiest defender in the game even if the only thing it by default cancelled was moving without shifting).
I have several disagreements here.
First, 5e hit points are ramped up over AD&D or 3e. As I mentioned a CR 1/2 Orc has 15hp. In 3.5 a CR 1/2 Orc had 5. CR2 Ogre: 59hp. 3.5 CR3 Ogre 29hp CR3 Minotaur: 76hp. 3.5 CR4 Minotaur: 39hp. CR8 Hydra 172hp. 9 Headed (CR8) 3.5 Hydra: 97hp. CR9 Fire Giant 172hp. 3.5 CR10 Fire Giant: 142hp. And CR means approximately the same thing betweem 3.5 and 5e (CR1 is 200XP - which is also the Medium XP value for 4 1st level PCs). I'm aware that it's not all the same way - and e.g. the Adult Red Dragon has more hp in 3.5.
I also don't see the argument that fighter DPR or even damage per attack in 5e is significantly higher than in 3.5. And you're still restricted to the single reaction per turn which means that you can't even stop a pack of goblins.
As for doing striker level damage to monsters on AoOs, some classes in 4e did that (notably the Slayer). On its own it wasn't normally enough partly because the 5ft Step/Shift/Withdraw options exist; one of the key Defender things was getting to hit people for attempting to withdraw rather than just for attempting to move, and another was for attempting to hit someone else in the battle line. (I do agree that the 4e PHB fighter could be overkill - which is why it was the stickiest defender in the game even if the only thing it by default cancelled was moving without shifting).
Manbearcat
Legend
Just wanted to comment on this right quick as it misses a fair bit of nuance in 4e defending (I'll use the Fighter since it was invoked as the exemplar).
4e Fighter had the basic OA rules (you must spend a move action to shift if you want to get out of melee with someone and not eat an OA) that complemented their suite of abilities (including the controller component you mentioned, but also the striker component you listed for 5e) that made up a defending niche that:
1) A mark that imposed a - 2 to attack anyone but the fighter and provoked an OA if you did so and/or even if you shifted.
2) Allowed for the control of multiple enemies at once by a large number of multi-attack abilities and utilities that would apply the Fighter's mark
3) BA and OA augmenting abilities that amped Fighters up to just under Striker level damage normally, which would then surpass striker-level damage if enemies violated their marks.
4) Another feature that worked with all of these things to prevent enemies from moving away from the fighter and pursuing a softer target (which would still eat the - 2 to attack if they did so).
5) A large number of skirmishing abilities that let them move all of the battlefield and engage enemies as needed.
In total, a base, out-of-the-box Fighter (without any feats) is a skirmisher, a damage-dealing machine (surpassing leaders/controllers/other defenders), a melee controller or striker level damage-dealer (GM's catch-22 choice), and a damage absorbing tank.
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