Arguments and assumptions against multi classing

5ekyu

Hero
We both know...snip

Some specific responses.

"Also, since we know cooperation exists and is better than non-cooperation, but we also know that disagreements will always crop up, then the above statement can be modified to this: it must be that the DM has the last word on some things, and the player has the last word on other things, when disagreement rears its ugly head."

then down to
|"For the entire history of the hobby, the consensus about who has the final word on what, the line of demarcation, is that the player has the final word on their own PC and the DM has the final word on everything else."

First, not that is not true. Referencing this "hobby" as a whole there are a friggin ton of different approaches to this issue - some offering quite a bit of overlap and crossing back and forth - at the table level and the system level - so the key part is that rigid hard lines of demarcation often are not as rigid as say some gaming theory philosophy-dreamers want to always point things to be. For instance, it may be that the situations allow the decisions to be voted on - where no concrete line of "your or mine" are made other than case-by-case group decisions on policy. other cases, Another vantage point might allow the GM to step in and veto (no that cant happen) but said veto is not used except in extreme cases. A fairly obvious case IRL may be a player acting in relatively bad faith who goes PVP even though it is not normally something done at the table - even if not expressly forbidden.

The thing about choosing to want to prop your position up on rigidly defined lines is that most often in real play these lines are not so rigid or absolute and you may wind up dancing on a theoretical pin that is very much far afield.

And of course, there are numerous examples of very fun games where the rigid absolutism of PC vs everything else was handled not at all as you suggest - games where characters woke up amnesia and had no idea what they were as far as "player stats were", games where screentime type of alterations to the world were firmly in the hands of players and the GMs - etc etc etc. games where NPCs can influence PCs and even change them by "social mechanics". there are RPGs where the actual story/plotlines/challenges are generated by the players much more than the Gm - each resolving pieces as they unfold. cases where the "task roll" for a search is a roll to narrate and create what *is there* as oppose to "find what was pre-determined to be there or not."

And of course, plenty where that gets muddled mixed and matched every day.

In my games, i take the opportunity when a player rolls a 20 on a skill check (proficient) to draw from a list of their background elements and suggestions made by them for inclusion of extra stuff. Some of it was "fleshed out my me" based on what they gave, some of it was created by me to add to what they gave and some of it was created by them and dropped in as is. So a search for a mountain pass might come across a dead body that has ties to one of the players and drives (or provides a new) personal storyline that was not there before. In my game, each player was given a chance to invent a world and race for the game as NPCs and then we worked together to revise after they had enough experience with setting to see whaere they wanted to tweak it.



There is far more in heaven and earth and the rpg hobby, Horatio, than is able to be supported by your narrow, rigid pillar of demarcation that you need to support your arguments.

"So that's why your objection to my fluff is not valid. It would be valid if my fluff choice changed the way lycanthropy worked in his game world for any other creature, but my circumstance is unique."

I get you want to keep piling on things that *may* play a role or *might* play a role so as to keep working until you get the other side in your collaboration to just give up on your wanting to be the only civilized barbarian in your world. the circumatsnaces that allowed you to be such are declared from on high by you to be unique. thats cool... wonderful and fine and all... but for me thats not a collaboration but a dictation. you have taken a rather tired trope and tried to lock it into this "radical concept" of a civilized barbarian (ahem TARZAN ahem) and the equally radical concept of pregnant-when-supernatural trope.

i hope that works for you in your games. I hope you have GMs who ooohhh and ahhh for it.

me? i dont have any problem with civilized barbarian or alternative fluff. i have a problem with unliateral pc declaration of off-limits tho when those are declared.

See, here is the rub... your PC, your bastion of MINE MINE MINE MINE HANDS OFF MINE MINE MINE is, get this, part of the world too. You are not "somewhere else". That means i have to account for you in that "world of the GMs" and just to be clear i am not going to try to take time to list for you everything that might be a problem within the game before you pick up a pencil.

hence that whole -collaboration thing instead of the rigid line in the sand.

That way we get a very extremely large set of things to work with without an amazingly large list of edge cases trying and failing to nail down all the catches and bumps.

"(werewolves are immune to normal weapons; I have a diluted version which explains the damage resistance from Rage, and better Unarmoured AC), "

So, somehow the immune to non-magical weapons somehow morphs into higher Ac vs spells? That chosen and as an unassailable choice by the PLAYER?

Wow... so if a player decided "i once drank gold dragon piss from a silvered boot under a full moon while reciting the oath of office to a town that no longer exists and so i have the ability to backstab as a rogue... the Gm has to accept that because... the player decides its unique enough?"

yes an extreme example but - once one accepts that unique is in the hands of the player...

"I have the right and responsibility to choose my class and background (and, yes, fluff) from those the DM has already said are available."

if you Gm told you that werewolfy sex tricks tropes can give you unarmored defense - then yep - you can choose it as part of your collaboration.

But, beyond that, its more like a collaboration.

An expectation that "all that is allowed will be listed ahead of time" or "all that will be disallowed will be listed ahead of time" - either way - is an unreasonable burden to be placed on either side of a collaboration on a work as broad as these are. Whichever side has that burden is put in the place of de facto forfeiting his side of the collaboration (trusting to the others not just good will and good faith but having sufficient knowledge to avoid clashes) or presenting a massively restricted set of options or presenting a massive list of edge cases.

Not a way i want to work out a game with my players. We come to it with the idea that we all get a good grasp of the basics and general boundaries but that we also expect a lot of possible scrapes and edge cases here and there that we will *work out* and not see as *one side is absolutely right* at that stage of world+PC chargen.

if this extreme works for you - thats fantastic.
 

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5ekyu

Hero
But I don't need a new class, since I am only explaining the features of the barbarian class. It would be ridiculous to require anyone explaining their class abilities to create a different class with different abilities! It would never end!



Since the fiend patron does indeed have a large measure of power beyond that of mere mortals, it is well within its abilities to have influenced the circumstances of my PC's conception to create what might appear to be part-werewolf.

You are pretending the fiend does not have that power, just so you can pretend that my fluff breaks your world!

So, to be clear - not only do you the player decide than an NPC fiend has the power your fluff needs it to have but that also this is unique and so it has never ever done this at any other time?

Wow... a fiend savant when it comes to wolfy sex tricks... got it in one.

i am pretty sure by this point in the "discussion at my table" the other players would be rolling their eyes and giving me the "hook and gong" sign or just outright calling for the group vote.

had more than enough of this in point buy supers games with the "my *tightly themed set of super powers is that i am from an unknown alien race - all dead but me - and they have this seemingly odd and even contradictory assortment of powers that work together." (Which oddly enough is another not at all uncommon trope that seems to keep getting called "unique" when dreamed up)
 
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Yeah, we fundamentally disagree on that!

Do you have a rules reference for the idea that the descriptions in the PHB are the only allowed fluff and if you use your own fluff then you are breaking the game's rules?
Do you have a rules reference for the idea that the descriptions in the PHB can be unilaterally altered by any player, and that the DM should be cool with it? Because every reference I've found to altering the fluff is in the DMG, next to the part where it describes how you should also change the mechanics to reflect those changes in the fluff. The rules in the PHB just tell you what the class is, fluff-wise, and then tells you the mechanics associated with that fluff.
Cool.

Help me create a character class which has a d12 hit die, Rage and Unarmoured AC at first level and Danger Sense and Reckless Attack at 2nd, because those are the class features my fluff explains!
No, it doesn't actually. Your fluff describes minor werewolf abilities, like enhanced physical stats and weapon resistance that is overcome by silver or magical weapons. The enhanced strength could be represented as Advantage on Strength-based checks while "raging", but there's no reason why that would necessarily impose Advantage on attacks made against you. Werewolves don't have anything like Danger Sense, but they do have Keen Senses, and Advantage on many Perception checks is nothing to sneeze at.

I have no idea why you would think that this entitles you to adding your Con bonus to your AC while unarmored. There's nothing in the description of werewolves which remotely hints to that, in any capacity.
 

TwoSix

Dirty, realism-hating munchkin powergamer
So, to be clear - not only do you the player decide than an NPC fiend has the power your fluff needs it to have but that also this is unique and so it has never ever done this at any other time?
Not sure why that would be an issue. Your character is a PC, unique events are supposed to happen to them. That's why the PC is the protagonist of a fantasy story.
 

Salthorae

Imperial Mountain Dew Taster
I have no idea why you would think that this entitles you to adding your Con bonus to your AC while unarmored. There's nothing in the description of werewolves which remotely hints to that, in any capacity.

MM pg. 211 said:
Armor Class 12 (natural armor) in wolf or hybrid form

So no, nothing in the werewolf description that specifically says “werewolves add their Con Bonus to AC”, but Lycanthropes have natural armor... have in every edition I’ve seen. Why can’t that equate to “gained Unarmored Defense” mechanic as a barbarian?

Why would you want to go through the effort of writing custom classes and subclasses when there is perfectly acceptable class that has abilities that are close to the backstory concept and can be viewed as causing them?

I as a DM sure as heck don’t have time for all that. I barely have enough time to prep a game.
 

5ekyu

Hero
Not sure why that would be an issue. Your character is a PC, unique events are supposed to happen to them. That's why the PC is the protagonist of a fantasy story.
"Always remember, son, you are unique... just like everybody else." My brother stole that from somewhere.

Every event is unique in some way.

That doesn't mean a player in a game should be able to declare what those unique events are or that the npcs acted uniquely around them as an unassailable right.

You want to collaborate on that? Fantastic.
You want to fist it as an absolute? Not so much.
 

TwoSix

Dirty, realism-hating munchkin powergamer
"Always remember, son, you are unique... just like everybody else." My brother stole that from somewhere.

Every event is unique in some way.

That doesn't mean a player in a game should be able to declare what those unique events are or that the npcs acted uniquely around them as an unassailable right.
I don't think anyone posting on these boards is so unreasonable as to think any particular demarcation of player and DM constraints is unassailable, and any quotes otherwise are probably somebody getting overexcited. We all get all a little invested in our viewpoints on here, I think. :)

My particular viewpoint is that setting should exist primarily as a means to make communication between the player and the DM easier. Unless the players are particularly excited to explore a setting the DM has created for his own enjoyment, having to learn the nuances of a DM's setting just introduces complication to that communication. That's why I favor published kitchen-sink settings (which allow for importation of all sorts of fantasy tropes), or a simple loosely defined homebrew setting built off common tropes, with maybe one or two wacky twists.

If your setting is so tightly defined that a devil-sired wolfman breaks it, my opinion is that you (as a DM) have put your own aesthetic desires too far ahead of your players, and you need to have a conversation about what all of you think the setting actually is and should be.

You want to fist it as an absolute? Not so much.
I absolutely have no desire to do that fisting.
 

So no, nothing in the werewolf description that specifically says “werewolves add their Con Bonus to AC”, but Lycanthropes have natural armor... have in every edition I’ve seen. Why can’t that equate to “gained Unarmored Defense” mechanic as a barbarian?
They have a natural AC of 12, in 5E, which is the equivalent of wearing leather armor (just like regular wolves, who instead have AC 13 because they have higher Dex).

Why can't that equate to the Unarmored Defense mechanic? Because it doesn't. That's not the process by which the game rules convert narrative into mechanics. The correct and consistent translation would be that they have the equivalent of leather armor. If you claim that the given narrative equates to whatever mechanic you want, then you are cheating the system, by changing the way it converts narrative into mechanics.

A game system isn't just a set of pre-defined classes that have pre-defined mechanics tied to their pre-defined narrative existences. A game system is the whole language by which a narrative is converted into mechanics. The type of hide which a wolf has is translated into a specific mechanical bonus, and if you alter that translation without altering the underlying narrative, then you aren't even playing that game anymore.
Why would you want to go through the effort of writing custom classes and subclasses when there is perfectly acceptable class that has abilities that are close to the backstory concept and can be viewed as causing them?
Just because those mechanics could be tied to that new fluff, if you really wanted them to be, that doesn't mean they should be. If I'm being honest with myself, then there is probably a better (more accurate and consistent) set of mechanics which would better represent that new fluff.

If I'm going out of my way to add weird new stuff to my game world, then I owe it to everyone involved to do the work and get it right. If I re-fluff a giant spider to use the stats of an adult white dragon (for example), then no matter how I try to re-fluff its actions, the outcome of the fight will forever be tainted by the fact that its stats weren't a true reflection of what a giant spider should be.
I as a DM sure as heck don’t have time for all that. I barely have enough time to prep a game.
In that case, I highly recommend that you either not home-brew stuff, or that you not care about the integrity and consistency of the system. Probably the latter, if everyone at your table is okay with it. But please don't hold your preference against others who do have the time, and are willing to invest the energy in going through the whole process.
 
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Salthorae

Imperial Mountain Dew Taster
Why can't that equate to the Unarmored Defense mechanic? Because it doesn't. That's not the process by which the game rules convert narrative into mechanics. The correct and consistent translation would be that they have the equivalent of leather armor. If you claim that the given narrative equates to whatever mechanic you want, then you are cheating the system, by changing the way it converts narrative into mechanics.

Thanks for the italics, really helped drive home your point and make me see the light.

I am not claiming the given narrative equates to whatever mechanic I want and I'm not cheating anything. I'm saying that an animal/lycanthrope's natural armor (of whatever mechanical bonus) that makes it harder to hit, jives pretty well with the barbarian's Unarmored defense...which is natural... and makes them harder to hit. I'm not going for a 100% alignment, but a "here's some points of commonality and overlay, so sure that works for me."

There is no codified way that narrative converts to mechanics in any D&D system. Anywhere. I am simply agreeing with Arial Black's narrative to class overlay. Mechanics are defined and they do allow you to tell a narrative, but there is no official codified way that the reverse is true. Narrative/fluff may inform (see? they really help!) mechanics design and application, but you cannot say that "a" narrative must always equate to "x" mechanic.

A game system isn't just a set of pre-defined classes that have pre-defined mechanics tied to their pre-defined narrative existences. A game system is the whole language by which a narrative is converted into mechanics.
Err, I think you have that opposite. A game system is a defined language of mechanics by which a narrative is enacted (in whatever medium you choose from PBP to TBT to Streaming). See above.

The type of hide which a wolf has is translated into a specific mechanical bonus, and if you alter that translation without altering the underlying narrative, then you aren't even playing that game anymore.
Just because those mechanics could be tied to that new fluff, if you really wanted them to be, that doesn't mean they should be.
I'm not altering the wolf's hide or altering anything... at all?

If I'm going out of my way to add weird new stuff to my game world, then I owe it to everyone involved to do the work and get it right. If I re-fluff a giant spider to use the stats of an adult white dragon (for example), then no matter how I try to re-fluff its actions, the outcome of the fight will forever be tainted by the fact that its stats weren't a true reflection of what a giant spider should be.
Wha...what? Why would you ever use white dragon stats for a giant spider when you HAVE giant spider stats? No one is "adding weird new stuff to a world" here. We're not talking about inventing the wheel either. We're talking about a character who wants to play a city raised Barbarian with the Soldier background. He just wrote a story to explain how his city raised barbarian has the same mechanical abilities as a raging tribal warrior. You're thinking about this too hard.

In that case, I highly recommend that you either not home-brew stuff, or that you not care about the integrity and consistency of the system. Probably the latter, if everyone at your table is okay with it. But please don't hold your preference against others who do have the time, and are willing to invest the energy in going through the whole process.

So.. no one is even trying to home-brew something here? So yeah. And I can home-brew what, when, where, and how I want thank you much.

You really have no place to tell me that I or anyone else shouldn't home-brew because you don't agree with my approval of someone's narrative rationale for how and why their PC is a specific class and background combination from the PHB, the first core book.

Not sure why you're so sensitive about this thread, but you're doing exactly the same thing. You are consistently holding YOUR preferences for how mechanics and world fluff go together against [MENTION=6799649]Arial Black[/MENTION] and anyone who seems to be ok with this character backstory. So... pot... kettle?
 

There is no codified way that narrative converts to mechanics in any D&D system.
I feel like you haven't read the DMG.
Err, I think you have that opposite. A game system is a defined language of mechanics by which a narrative is enacted (in whatever medium you choose from PBP to TBT to Streaming). See above.
It's both. You start with the narrative, and then the system translates that into a mechanical language so that we can resolve it, and then it translates back into narrative so that we know what happens. If the mechanics didn't actually reflect anything within the narrative, then the narrative we end up with after the mechanical resolution would be meaningless, since it would just be whatever arbitrary story someone felt like telling.

Consider the example at hand. We could say that this semi-werewolf has the equivalent of leather armor, or we could say that it has the equivalent of Unarmored Defense. The difference between them may well be a +4 bonus to AC. Let's pretend that the DM allows the latter option. Later in the campaign, there is a very difficult fight, and this character is the last one standing against the boss; the boss makes an attack, which misses by a margin of 2, and then the PC goes and finishes off the boss (and then goes on to revive all of the other PCs, and they continue about their business). In this case, the party didn't ultimately triumph because they were actually stronger or smarter than their enemies; they only triumphed because the DM made the decision that this character should arbitrarily have a +4 bonus to AC. The correct outcome, if the DM had actually cared enough to model these things consistently, would be that the party is defeated.
Wha...what? Why would you ever use white dragon stats for a giant spider when you HAVE giant spider stats?
We also have stats for lycanthropes. If we need to represent one, we should use those. If we want a lycanthrope that somehow acts like a barbarian for some reason, then you get nonsensical results, just as though you'd used stats for a dragon to represent a giant spider. (As for that particular example, it was something that happened to me while I was running a 4E game, and experimenting with their own philosophy of mutable fluff.)
You really have no place to tell me that I or anyone else shouldn't home-brew because you don't agree with my approval of someone's narrative rationale for how and why their PC is a specific class and background combination from the PHB, the first core book.

Not sure why you're so sensitive about this thread, but you're doing exactly the same thing.
I'm saying that if you can't bother to read the book, or you're too lazy to follow the guidelines listed, then you should keep your home-brew at home, where it can't bother anyone else. The topic at hand is a jerk player who shows up to a new game and tries to bully the DM about how their own world is supposed to work. As members of the community, we are obligated to stop this sort of bullying before it starts. That kind of anti-social behavior should never be tolerated, and the jerk player in question would be doing everyone a favor if they learned to check their sense of self-entitlement.
 

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