Arguments and assumptions against multi classing

5ekyu

Hero
I don't think anyone posting on these boards is so unreasonable as to think any particular demarcation of player and DM constraints is unassailable, and any quotes otherwise are probably somebody getting overexcited. We all get all a little invested in our viewpoints on here, I think. :)

My particular viewpoint is that setting should exist primarily as a means to make communication between the player and the DM easier. Unless the players are particularly excited to explore a setting the DM has created for his own enjoyment, having to learn the nuances of a DM's setting just introduces complication to that communication. That's why I favor published kitchen-sink settings (which allow for importation of all sorts of fantasy tropes), or a simple loosely defined homebrew setting built off common tropes, with maybe one or two wacky twists.

If your setting is so tightly defined that a devil-sired wolfman breaks it, my opinion is that you (as a DM) have put your own aesthetic desires too far ahead of your players, and you need to have a conversation about what all of you think the setting actually is and should be.


I absolutely have no desire to do that fisting.

i thought the same until it was pretty much made clear by explicit statement that wasn't the case - that my assessment that they did not really mean the extreme was strongly corrected to say they did mean it just that strongly etc.

you can choose to dismiss what others say and even clarify to their full measure - thats cool. its like the definition of dismissive but hey - to each their own.

i don't have a view on what "the setting" in anyone's rpg "should be" beyond "what the group decides they want". With that in mind, i get to avoid making judgements from on high about other people's choices as to how their make-believe-co-op activity works or find clever ways to decide that a theoretical Gm has theoretically gone too far. of course, a key to this part if "they" not "I" and "group wants" instead of "one player mandates".

YMMV
 

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Maxperson

Morkus from Orkus
Luckily for me, we are playing in a world in which barbarians, warlocks, lycanthropes and fiends all already exist without me having to import them from another genre.
Just to nitpick a bit. You aren't playing in a world with those things. You are playing a game that has those things. The world may or may not have any or all of those things, depending on what the DM wants.
 


5ekyu

Hero
They have a natural AC of 12, in 5E, which is the equivalent of wearing leather armor (just like regular wolves, who instead have AC 13 because they have higher Dex).

Why can't that equate to the Unarmored Defense mechanic? ... snip

The amusing part is this discussion of the merits and whereofores and translation and reasonable-or-not of the sexy-wolf-trix being conducted here is something that poster says should not occur - it should be their absolute right to demand it as is without debate.

its kind of like arguing that they gave you five dimes instead of two quarters on a transaction where you were actually shortchanged by 50 dollars.

:)
 

Erechel

Explorer
I've wrote (again) a long answer that got ditched because of the crappy connection. Short:
I didn't noticed the 5 feet disadvantage, but that doesn't really affect the account, because the original 34 didn't take it.

In a featureless, empty white room without positioning or companionship, my base damage with lance is as follows-
6.5 (average damage) + 6 (strength + dueling) x 2 (extra attack): 25
4 Superiority Dice. 4.5 average damage.
Action Surge four double attacks
Average fights during 4-5 rounds

CR 6 Av. armor Class: 15, hit points: 146-160. I hit with 8, average attack result is 11.

Round 1: 25+9 = 34
Round 2: 25+9 = 34
Round 3: 25x2 = 50
Round 4: 25
Round 5: 25

Total damage in 5 rounds: 168; DPR 33.6 (34). Total Damage in 4 rounds: 143. Average DPR 35.75

In a featureless, empty white room without positioning or companionship, my base damage with sword is as follows-
4.5 (average damage) + 6 (strength + dueling) + 0.45 (10% crit) x 2 (extra attack): 21.9
4 Superiority Dice. 4.5 average damage. Assume 1 crit in 4 rounds for extra 4.5.
Action Surge four double attacks in 1 round.
Average fights during 4-5 rounds

CR 6 Av. armor Class: 15, hit points: 146-160. I hit with 8, average attack result is 11.

Round 1: 22.9+9 = 31.9
Round 1: 22.9+9 +4.5= 36.4 (I put the critical hit SD damage here, although it could be in any of the first 4 rounds)
Round 3: 22.9 x2 = 45.8
Round 4: 22.9
Round 5: 22.9

Total damage in 5 rounds: 159.9; DPR 31.98 (32). Total Damage in 4 rounds: 137. Average DPR 34.25

A short rest is needed after every complete fight, but DPR sustains. Not a bad assumption, especially when I'm not counting anything that could possibly benefit me, such as terrain, OAs (10.95 or 12.5 extra damage as a reaction), basic poison (2.5 extra damage for one minute, PHB), the fear caused by Menacing Strike (possible routings or withdrawals of enemies... unless undead), alchemist fire to the blade (let's say +1 fire damage, the same as a torch does), hot coals on the ground, spikes, caltrops (1 piercing damage when you step in them, probably more if you fall prone on them -say 1d4 or 2.5-), magic weapons or falls from mountains, bridges, windows or rooftops that automatically win a battle.

Lance is still RAW and RAI a dueling weapon. You need to weild it two handed when you are on foot, because is a horseman weapon, not because is a two handed weapon. It is the weapon of choice in jousts, that is duels between knights, and it is always one handed then; their reach and damage are to reflect the fact that you are on horseback (in fact, a sensible ruling would be that you can't even attack a prone creature on horseback if you have not a lance; and I must add that a knight should have the choice of using the horse trample instead of its weapons, but I'm not advocating this, because it is already powerful as it is).

And battles are never in a vacuum unless you have a crappy GM. Terrain, cunning, tricks, diplomacy, intimidation, cover, morale and such should play a heavy role on combats. Surrender, capture and retreat are legitimate ways to end a fight for the losing side. People should be aware that goblins won't fight to the last men alive, unless there is a very powerful reason. Only fearless or very desperate creatures should fight to the end. Wild animals, intelligent foes and monsters should retreat when they are badly injured or they think that they can't win, specially when their main force is dead or badly injured (killing spellcasters work wonders on their morale; and a dragon won't die over a pitiful fight: he is an intelligent enough monster to retreat and return when not expected).

About the horse thing: Most of my fights are on horseback. Not everyone, of course, but most yes. If a troll enters in a dungeon, a horse too. And if they not, luring the enemy outside does the trick. And the troll is at disadvantage. And yes, they die easily, that's why I have four horses and I'm making a plate barding for all of them.

And you centered on one piece of my argument, ignoring the sheer versatility that comes for a good build, even the "boring fighter": 6 skills, one of them with Expertise (athletics), 3 tools (Smith, Carpenter, Tinker), 3 languages, and heavy use of equipment such as crowbars, caltrops, and traps beat a white room theorist. As I've said earlier all that I've mentioned is sustained during real gameplay. Multiclassers are often beaten by dead levels, tier feature delays, lack of ASI to remain competitive, and bogged down in real play because they are often centered on an objective instead of a path. They suffer until they reach their desired synergy power, and then they get dissapointed when said power isn't all that great. I've witnessed this multiple times. I'm not saying that it is impossible to make it work, I say that is really difficult and not all that necessary.
 

Arial Black

Adventurer
Just to nitpick a bit. You aren't playing in a world with those things. You are playing a game that has those things. The world may or may not have any or all of those things, depending on what the DM wants.

You raise a good point, en passant at least. ;)

IF the game world had no lycanthropes, THEN that would be a valid objection to my fluff.

But I knew going in that the world already included lycanthropes. And The Fiend as a patron. And all the other stuff I included in my fluff.
 

Arial Black

Adventurer
They have a natural AC of 12, in 5E, which is the equivalent of wearing leather armor (just like regular wolves, who instead have AC 13 because they have higher Dex).

Why can't that equate to the Unarmored Defense mechanic? Because it doesn't. That's not the process by which the game rules convert narrative into mechanics. The correct and consistent translation would be that they have the equivalent of leather armor. If you claim that the given narrative equates to whatever mechanic you want, then you are cheating the system, by changing the way it converts narrative into mechanics.

Rubbish!

It is not part of this ruleset that ANY and EVERY creature that, conceptually, has a higher AC through the concept of a tough hide MUST realise that concept with exactly +1 to AC, just like leather armour!

The way it works is that the concept of tough hide adds a mechanical bonus to AC based on how tough the hide is. And guess what? The barbarian's unarmoured AC gets a bonus to AC depending on how tough the barbarian is, mechanically represented by his Con bonus.

It's not rocket science!

A game system isn't just a set of pre-defined classes that have pre-defined mechanics tied to their pre-defined narrative existences. A game system is the whole language by which a narrative is converted into mechanics. The type of hide which a wolf has is translated into a specific mechanical bonus, and if you alter that translation without altering the underlying narrative, then you aren't even playing that game anymore.

Really? If I statted up a werecreature with +2 rather than +1 of its AC coming from its tough hide, then I wouldn't be playing D&D 5e anymore?

Even the relationship between 'wolf' and 'werewolf', which conceptually gives a human wolf powers, does not result in the werewolf having an identical stat block to a normal wolf, especially in hybrid form.

Where did the hybrid form come from? The normal wolf doesn't have one! You are messing with my world by telling me how wolves work in my world!

...or could it be that wolf->werewolf isn't an exact match, that the wolf inspires the werewolf abilities?

Y'know, just like the werewolf inspires my barbarian abilities! Of course his abilities don't map exactly! That's because he's not an actual werewolf, in the same way that a werewolf is not an actual wolf!

Just because those mechanics could be tied to that new fluff, if you really wanted them to be, that doesn't mean they should be. If I'm being honest with myself, then there is probably a better (more accurate and consistent) set of mechanics which would better represent that new fluff.

Let's say we have a perfectly RAW D&D 5e PC. If we gave ten game designers a pure fluff description of what our PC can do, no game mechanics or class names mentioned, and then asked each game designer to invent 5e game mechanics to match that description, then they would produce ten different sets of game mechanics. They would not magically produce One True Way ten sets of identical mechanics!

The idea that 'tough hide' as a concept will ALWAYS translate to exactly a +1 AC is absurd! Proof exists in the 5e MM itself, with different AC bonuses for different creatures all based on the 'tough hide' concept.

Going back to the 'lines of demarcation' (yes, we all acknowledge that the game is all about cooperation! We don't disagree on that!), while the DM can always say 'no' to ANY part of any PC, the player can always say 'no' to playing a concept, class, mechanic or fluff that they feel has been changed too far from what they want to play.

If they cannot agree, then there is no game! Both player and DM know that, hence the cooperation.

I've already said that the DM can refuse some element of a player's fluff, and that the DM should have a rational reason for doing so. When you have a warlock patron, which according to the game rules is powerful enough to grant 9th level spells and astonishing abilities like Hurl Through Heck (I don't want to get censored ;)) but no patron's powers are fully defined, then it makes sense that they have power to do all sorts of things. Have you really already established that in your game world the fiend has x, y and z powers but definitely cannot mess with conception....before I told you my fluff? Really? Or did you decide, after I told you the fluff, that one thing the fiend cannot do is mess with conception, just so you feel you have justification for saying 'no', when you could more easily have just gone with it?

No, what you did was invent a reason to be unhappy about it.

We know that it is impossible for any detailed backstory written by a player to avoid mentioning people, places and/or events in the game world, things that are usually in the DM's purview. If the very fact that the player is using those things was a valid reason to refuse that fluff, then EVERY SINGLE PC would be refused on that basis, that the player is demanding control of NPCs, places or events in the DM's game world! There could be no PC backstory EVER! The DM would create the backstory for EVERY PC, simply because the players don't have authority to create NPCs, locations or events in the DM's game world.

This would mean that EVERY PC would be a DM created handout, with no input allowed from the player. But, although playing with such handouts is occasionally done, is this the expectation of our hobby? Is it weird, strange, or against RAW for players to create their own PC's backstory?

Even in games where players use DM created pre-gens, in my experience the players are encouraged to customise said pre-gens. I simply don't recognise our hobby in terms that players aren't allowed to create their own PC's backstory!

Of course there are extreme examples dotted about the world of players voting for abilities, DM pre-gens, DM-less games, and all sorts of strangeness, but when I talk about 'the consensus' I'm talking about the way the hobby is usually played, the way it is generally expected to work. And that way is that players make the choices, in play and backstory, for their own PC, and the DM controls everything else.
 

Arial Black

Adventurer
So, somehow the immune to non-magical weapons somehow morphs into higher Ac vs spells? That chosen and as an unassailable choice by the PLAYER?

Actually, it's 'chosen' by the barbarian's game mechanics. Mainly because players don't have the right to invent new mechanical abilities for themselves (Yeah, my 1st level fighter can cast 9th level spells actually! It's on page 15 of my backstory between 'women fall instantly in love with me' and 'ruler of the multiverse'!), they can only use their backstory to explain what the game mechanics already allow them to do.

Wow... so if a player decided "i once drank gold dragon piss from a silvered boot under a full moon while reciting the oath of office to a town that no longer exists and so i have the ability to backstab as a rogue... the Gm has to accept that because... the player decides its unique enough?"

yes an extreme example but - once one accepts that unique is in the hands of the player...

Erm, as silly as the example is...yeah...! Bearing in mind that the PC must already have at least one rogue level (or in a class which grants the Sneak Attack special ability) in order to be able to use their backstory to explain that ability...yeah.

Sure, I'd rather the player come up with a less silly explanation....but in the end I recognise that it's their PC and they can explain the abilities they have how they want.

As this player's DM, my role is to check that the character sheet is accurate, game mechanics-wise; so no adding abilities the game mechanics don't grant you. I would also look at their 'explanation' for how they acquired their backstabbing ability, and see how I can fit it into my game.

I could decide that anyone can get backstab powers by doing the exact same thing....but I'm pretty sure that would be both broken and absurd. So I would either secretly invent some other agent that is actually the source of that ability (a fey guardian? The PC was bamboozled into believing that the ritual granted that ability but it was a practical joke and the PC could do it all along?), or just ignore it and get on with the game, knowing for a fact that this backstory in no way FORCES me to give those properties to dragons, urine, silver, boots, full moons, oaths of office or towns that no longer exist.


 

Arial Black

Adventurer
had more than enough of this in point buy supers games with the "my *tightly themed set of super powers is that i am from an unknown alien race - all dead but me - and they have this seemingly odd and even contradictory assortment of powers that work together." (Which oddly enough is another not at all uncommon trope that seems to keep getting called "unique" when dreamed up)

Wait, are you saying that when you GM a point-buy superhero game that players are not allowed to explain their powers as the result of an extinct alien race, all but me?

Poor Kal-El. :mad:
 

Arial Black

Adventurer
Do you have a rules reference for the idea that the descriptions in the PHB can be unilaterally altered by any player, and that the DM should be cool with it?

If the example fluff were not mere examples but game rules, then it would have to be mentioned in the sections about character creation and classes.

It would say, 'choose your race, class and background', and under the class description it would say 'choose one of the allowed backstories' along with things like 'choose your weapon style/subclass/equipment'.

But it doesn't. It never will. ALL players are expected to come up with their own backstory, even if it's as cursory as "I'm a dwarf. Here's my axe". The examples are just to help get the creative juices flowing. The book is also formatted in such a way that players who have never played an RPG before can read the book and understand what's going on, and the examples help explain it.

But the examples are. Not. Rules.
 

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