Arguments and assumptions against multi classing

Satyrn

First Post
How is your Paladin getting his special Paladin abilities from The Fiend? It seems to me you are so desperate to get in a Paladin/warlock combo you took it upon yourself to fluff The Fiend into a divine entity to support your Paladin or for the Fiend to be able to grant divine Paladin abilities, while at the same time a god in the campaign does nothing about The Fiend impersonating said God.

Did you clear that with your DM? Would you go the that effort with a elf fighter/rogue combo, or it that not powerful enough to bother with?
I was wondering for a moment why [MENTION=6799649]Arial Black[/MENTION] had said the character would believe that all the divine paladin powers came from the fiend, then I noticed that he switched out of paladin after 2nd level, so he never did select an Oath.

I thought it was awfully clever that he used the multiclass rules to model getting tricked into making a fiendish pact while thinking he was swearing a sacred oath.
 

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Warpiglet

Adventurer
How is your Paladin getting his special Paladin abilities from The Fiend? It seems to me you are so desperate to get in a Paladin/warlock combo you took it upon yourself to fluff The Fiend into a divine entity to support your Paladin or for the Fiend to be able to grant divine Paladin abilities, while at the same time a god in the campaign does nothing about The Fiend impersonating said God.

Did you clear that with your DM? Would you go the that effort with a elf fighter/rogue combo, or it that not powerful enough to bother with?

I can't believe the nerve of some people! Playing single classed characters just to get the goodies faster! I bet they punch babies too! Don't even get me started on their munchkin grab for ASIs!
 

5ekyu

Hero
When the one that the author refuses to address is the one that most undermines his point.

Already edited to add in both the sleepy and angry.

maybe that will get me out of the CPPD handcuffs with just time served and a million and 2 hours of community service.

After all, an agreed upon influence is certainly off-limits in RPGs these days.
 

smbakeresq

Explorer
It's pretty simple really. He's confusing "divine" with "infernal" or taking a really holistic definition of divine to include infernal because why should the actual English definition of "divine" meaning "sacred" be taken to not mean "of hell or sacrilegious"?

I can see his point because popular media has made the point of questioning the lens that we look at good through since at least the 60s, (one popular example being Return of the Sith, Anakin's "I think the Jedi are Evil" approach).

That said, the DM's world view of what English vocabulary means in the context of the rules is a social issue, not a rules issue. My own point of view is that English vocabulary is interpreted the way it's supposed to be, not the way media colors it.

KB

While what you are saying is true about the English language, under Warlock it specifically states that Patrons are not gods. Since they are not Gods, they cant grant divine powers, which is what fuels Paladin powers. From the PHB:

"A paladin swears to uphold justice and righteousness, to stand with the good things of the world against the encroaching darkness, and to hunt the forces of evil wherever they lurk. Different paladins focus on various aspects of the cause of righteousness, but all are bound by the oaths that grant them power to do their sacred work. Although many paladins are devoted to gods of good, a paladin’s power com es as much from a commitment to justice itself as it does from a god."

" The most important aspect of a paladin character is the nature of his or her holy quest. Although the class features related to your oath don't appear until you reach 3rd level, plan ahead for that choice by reading the oath descriptions at the end of the class. Are you a devoted servant of good, loyal to the gods of justice and honor, a holy knight in shining armor venturing forth to smite evil? Are you a glorious champion of the light, cherishing everything beautiful that stands against the shadow, a knight whose oath descends from traditions older than many of the gods? Or are you an embittered loner sworn to take vengeance on those who have done great evil, sent as an angel of death by the gods or driven by your need for revenge? Appendix B lists many deities worshiped by paladins throughout the multiverse, such
as Torm, Tyr, Heironeous, Paladine, Kiri-Jolith, Dol Arrah, the Silver Flame, Bahamut, Athena, Re-Horakhty, and Heimdall. How did you experience your call to serve as a paladin? Did you hear a whisper from an unseen god or angel while you were at prayer? Did another paladin sense the potential within you and decide to train you as a squire? Or did some terrible event—the destruction of your home, perhaps— drive you to your quests? Perhaps you stumbled into a sacred grove or a hidden elven enclave and found yourself called to protect all such refuges of goodness and beauty. Or you might have known from your earliest memories that the paladin’s life was your calling, almost as if you had been sent into the world with that purpose stamped on your soul. As guardians against the forces of wickedness, paladins are rarely of any evil alignment. Most of them walk the paths of charity and justice. Consider how your alignment colors the way you pursue your holy quest and the manner in which you conduct yourself before gods and mortals. Your oath and alignment might be in harmony, or your oath might represent standards of behavior that you have not yet attained."


I see "god" and "gods" and "holy" and "sacred" in there many times. Also there is a clearly stated "
Different paladins focus on various aspects of the cause of righteousness, but all are bound by the oaths that grant them power to do their sacred work."



As far as the instant example, of course it will be stated "that's just fluff and not an actual rule so its meaningless I will recreate my own fluff that is meaningful and overrides anything the DM says about his world and his gods and that's what I will use."
 

5ekyu

Hero
Honestly, when I made my observation about the 1991 cutoff between transactional and empathetic relationship options, I was specifically referring to when TWoD hit the shelves.

Understandable. i Gmed my first game in 80 and ran my first WoD VtM 1st ed game within weeks of its release. I have observed how much it impacted RPGs at its release at a time when heavier and heavier crunch was the flavor of 800lb gorilla in vogue.
 

smbakeresq

Explorer
Because paladin abilities are simply abilities, and the concepts of arcane and divine carry no mechanical weight within the system.

And fighter/rogue is arguably more powerful than paladin/warlock.

Yes they do, read the PHB chapter. Now if you ignore every single thing that doesn't fit in like this statement "By 2nd level, you have learned to draw on divine magic through meditation and prayer to cast spells as a cleric does." (which to me indicates Paladins cast divine magic as a cleric does (a plain reading)) or the name of the power "Divine Smite" then sure it carries no weight what so ever.

I don't really think any MC is enough difference in power to be worried about one way or the other.

Except no one puts as much emphasis on re-flavoring fluff to fit their narrative on a fighter/rogue. Maybe they do but I haven't seen 77 pages on how to MC a fighter/rogue in some plausible way to convince people its not a power grab it was just a concept that they had for ages but never told anyone until the Hexblade came out.

There is another thread on the hexblade/paladin MC build itself where there author(sorry I forgot your name) just flatly states its done only because they min/max all their PC and its how they have fun and all other considerations are irrelevant. At least that author was forthright with himself and the boards.
 

TwoSix

Dirty, realism-hating munchkin powergamer
Yes they do, read the PHB chapter. Now if you ignore every single thing that doesn't fit in like this statement "By 2nd level, you have learned to draw on divine magic through meditation and prayer to cast spells as a cleric does." (which to me indicates Paladins cast divine magic as a cleric does (a plain reading)) or the name of the power "Divine Smite" then sure it carries no weight what so ever.
Sure. All I'm saying is that the words "divine" and "arcane" don't DO anything in 5e. Look it up. If you changed every reference in the cleric or paladin class with the word "divine" to the word "arcane", the class would play exactly the same. Contrast with previous editions, and mechanics like arcane spell failure, scroll use, etc.

If you want to weight those terms with certain setting-building constraints because of dictionary definitions or nostalgia or what have you, that's fine and dandy.

I don't really think any MC is enough difference in power to be worried about one way or the other.
Other than possibly sorlock, I don't either.

Except no one puts as much emphasis on re-flavoring fluff to fit their narrative on a fighter/rogue. Maybe they do but I haven't seen 77 pages on how to MC a fighter/rogue in some plausible way to convince people its not a power grab it was just a concept that they had for ages but never told anyone until the Hexblade came out.
Sure, but that's because fighter and rogue have so little built in fluff that there's really no need to refluff it at all.

There is another thread on the hexblade/paladin MC build itself where there author(sorry I forgot your name) just flatly states its done only because they min/max all their PC and its how they have fun and all other considerations are irrelevant. At least that author was forthright with himself and the boards.
I don't know if that was me, but it sounds like me. I'm pretty open about being a powergamer. I build characters from a mechanical perspective first, and then I build supporting fluff to make the character cohesive and intriguing. MC builds are simply more interesting to refluff because you have to weave more disparate concepts together. I make no apology for finding MC martial/warlock builds more interesting because of Hexblade. (side note: I'm actually playing a Hexblade Warlock right now, no multiclassing. It's plenty powerful enough even without MCing!)
 

smbakeresq

Explorer
I can't believe the nerve of some people! Playing single classed characters just to get the goodies faster! I bet they punch babies too! Don't even get me started on their munchkin grab for ASIs!

Remember though these MC are carefully chosen and designed to be better on balance then getting those things through a single class. The Optimization forum is full of the analysis. That's why its done, and having something well thought out and planned should be encouraged and worked out with the DM first to smooth over any troubles.
 

G

Guest 6801328

Guest
Already edited to add in both the sleepy and angry.

maybe that will get me out of the CPPD handcuffs with just time served and a million and 2 hours of community service.

After all, an agreed upon influence is certainly off-limits in RPGs these days.

You might want to re-read your last few posts, with the word "hyperbole" in mind. Yeah, Arial also was a little hyperbolic when he said it was the "worst thing ever" or something like that, but that just makes two of you whose lame rhetorical techniques are unpersuasive.
 

G

Guest 6801328

Guest
I don't know if that was me, but it sounds like me. I'm pretty open about being a powergamer. I build characters from a mechanical perspective first, and then I build supporting fluff to make the character cohesive and intriguing.

As I said earlier in the thread, I don't think mechanical shenanigans are any less valid as a source of inspiration for character concept than, say, drawing inspiration from movies or novels.

Let's say that you've discovered that there's huge synergy between Spore Druid, Mastermind Rogue, and Kensai Monk. It seems to me that the challenge of writing a coherent story for that is kind of like getting an essay assignment to "compare and contrast skateboard culture to Pathan tribes along the Afghan/Pakistan border", or randomly drawing improv acting cues that throw together a neurotic housewife, a serial killer, and a Brazilian ranch-hand. It's an opportunity for creativity and novelty. (Much, dare I say it, like rolling 5 Int and deciding that you're going to play a genius.)

Now, to be sure, LOTS of players don't do that. They figure out the synergistic multi-class build and then just enjoy throwing tons of dice at the table. But that's on them, not the multi-class. If you don't let them play their overpowered tri-class aberration it's not like they're going to suddenly discover the joy of character development.

Cause and correlation, folks.
 

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