D&D 5E Does this riddle make sense?

TheCosmicKid · Oct 30, 2017

I like [MENTION=71699]vonklaude[/MENTION]'s variation, but it bugs me why the angel would say anything if they don't know it to be true. And if the devil agrees with them, they can run the logic as well as, if not better, than, the PCs and go, "hmm, something's wrong here".

Maybe have the two trapped in magic mirrors such that they can't see or hear what the other one says? Then clever PCs might be able to get more information by relaying the information between them.

Also, I think a devil is better than a demon here. Always lying is consistent behavior, and that says lawful to me. In any case, both types of fiend are normally intelligent creatures who are capable of deciding when to lie and when not as best suits their interests, so to get a nice simple logic-puzzle rule like "always lies" you're probably.gonna have to put some sort of curse or geas on the fiend to force them to do it. Perhaps the same mechanism also stripped the angel's memory. Some effect of the mirrors, perhaps?

And if you're doing that, there's no particular reason you can't make the ANGEL the liar...

FesterJester · Oct 30, 2017

TheCosmicKid said:
I like [MENTION=71699]vonklaude[/MENTION]'s variation, but it bugs me why the angel would say anything if they don't know it to be true. And if the devil agrees with them, they can run the logic as well as, if not better, than, the PCs and go, "hmm, something's wrong here".

Well the backstory (which I talk about in another post) is that they've been stuck in this room together for almost a millennia and they've both gone a little crazy from being stuck with their arch enemy, but the devil is already a little crazy so you can't tell lol.
The reason the angel doesn't know is because he was summoned second, so he's just so anxious to be released that his mind is playing tricks on him. But the PCs don't know that

merwins · Oct 30, 2017

FesterJester said:
Is this too convoluted? Whomever they release will give them a boon (extra hp or damage or something)

Also, I've considered throwing in a third option that neither of them want, which is another level which sucks both their essences into a magic item that the PC's can carry around and acts as an "idk what to choose, lets opt out"....but that feels like too much of a cop out.

Yes, I think it's too convoluted -- especially with your translated/interpreted "commentary". I'm decent at grasping this sort of logic, but the chatter is pretty confusing to me.

Also, the fact that the PCs get a bennie *no matter which lever they pull* is the real cop out. Their morality is the only motivation to pull the "correct" lever. If you're not allergic to evil, just pull any lever -- it's all good.

The magic item sounds fun, but it should work like an Augury PLUS an aspect of the logic puzzle... every time. You can ask for weal and woe feedback.
Option 1: They both answer. And they both only see things from their point of view. And no situation is entire black and white.
Option 2: Only one can answer a given question, but you don't know which one.
This way, the magic item is a little more work for you, but could be entertaining.

Tony Vargas · Oct 30, 2017

You could have the devil polymorphed to look like the angel, or both of them polymorphed to look like something ambiguous.

They then each tell you that they are an angel that was summoned into a room containing a fiend. The summoner left before setting either of them a task, and the fiend imitated the angel's form, trying to convince anyone who came by that it was the one that should be released. It's been doing that for so long, including keeping the guise up while alone with the real angel, that it many not even realize it's really the fiend anymore, or, at least, can't be sure (and the angel may have come to doubt itself, as well).

Rather than hearkening back to the logic puzzle in Laybrinth, this could be resolved like Garth v Kirk in ST:TOS. After much discussion, the real angel, acting on it's half-forgotten benevolent nature, warns the party to just leave them both as there's no way to be sure which of them is the devil, while the devil sticks to the story of being the angel (or maybe asks the party to release them both in a final act of desperation).

Saeviomagy · Oct 30, 2017

The problem with all of these are the following:
1. There's not really a stake - unless the two tell the PCs what they are offering up front, the PCs are just pulling a lever for fun, right?
2. Since the logic isn't perfectly clear, there's not really a way of getting the answer 'right' apart from burning a spell.
3. Also, beware that the PCs can often burn spells to solve something like this if there is actually a concrete correct answer.

My personal choice as a player in this case would be to leave the two there and possibly come back to use them as information sources later.

GMMichael · Oct 31, 2017

Tony Vargas said:
You could have the devil polymorphed to look like the angel, or both of them polymorphed to look like something ambiguous.

This is where my mind went when they were chatting about the angel not knowing which level to pull...

Two trapped angels, one says "pull my lever right away before that lying devil confuses you" and the other says "don't listen to him; he's a devil in disguise."

For that matter, what does an angel look like, anyway? There should be a couple of animals trapped: cat and dog. Let the players figure out which one's an "angel" and which is a "devil."

clearstream · Oct 31, 2017

FesterJester said:
I was originally thinking a demon, I went with devil simply to add in that "make a deal with the devil" sort of circumstance. That and an Eryines and deva shooting next to each other is an interesting sight.
I think I'll try it that way though. I am thinking they will automatically go with the angel, but we'll see. Players often surprise you (or at least me)!

As a DM, players surprising me is one of the things I value most

Thinking through your riddle, something you had at the outset that I omitted is a clue that Angel isn't sure which is which. That needs to still be in there. Maybe Angel looks hesitant or expresses doubts before coming to "Yes, its the Left one"?

Eltab · Oct 31, 2017

FesterJester said:
Is this too convoluted? Whomever they release will give them a boon (extra hp or damage or something)

I forget the Star Trek episode...
Kirk: This man -points to Mudd- always lies.
Android: I accept your statement as accurate.
Harry Mudd: -sounds like a used-car salesman- I'm lying to you right now.
Android: You say that you are lying, but you always lie, therefore you must be telling the truth. But you cannot tell the truth, because you always lie...

The boon the group gets should be different based on who they release. The devil's boon might be a pain/gain thing: do +2W damage on an attack but take W damage yourself.
Can the group release both levers? (If so, what happens then?)

FesterJester · Oct 31, 2017

Eltab said:
The boon the group gets should be different based on who they release. The devil's boon might be a pain/gain thing: do +2W damage on an attack but take W damage yourself.
Can the group release both levers? (If so, what happens then?)

They will, basically I have it set up the the angels boons are defensive in nature (increased healing, AC, etc) and the devils are offensive.

FesterJester · Oct 31, 2017

So I've reworked it and reworked it based on you're input. The game is tomorrow and I'll make a post to let you know what the PC's decide to do (of it were me I'd be curious) & how hard they find it. Thanks for the help!

D&D 5E Does this riddle make sense?

TheCosmicKid

Hero

FesterJester

Villager

merwins

Explorer

Tony Vargas

Legend

Saeviomagy

Adventurer

GMMichael

Guide of Modos

clearstream

(He, Him)

Eltab

Lord of the Hidden Layer

FesterJester

Villager

FesterJester

Villager

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