I see that it is not possible to have a normal discussion with you.
Think what you want.
Nudity, inclusivity and racial representation in RPGs
I see that it is not possible to have a normal discussion with you.
Think what you want.
Ovinomancer
No flips for you!
I read it as just do it, don't pound your chest and tell everyone that you're doing it. The former I appreciate; the latter is just virtue signalling. Personally, I'd like a world with more just doing it and less telling everyone how you're going to do it. Every time I read an 'inclusivity statement' my eyes roll. Every time I see a transgender black man being cool, I think, 'hey, cool.'
doctorbadwolf
Heretic of The Seventh Circle
Damn. I'm not into grimdark at all, but I may support ya anyway, just so the grimdarks of the world can have the thing you're offering.
The lady with the hooves, what manner of creature is she?
doctorbadwolf
Heretic of The Seventh Circle
And others look for such statements, because there is too much material that ignores their existence or treats it like a joke to just sift through every game book out there.
And it is appreciated exactly because it is a strong signal. It is a "you are welcome here, and in fact we actively want to have you around" sign, in a world that still tends to barely tolerate certain groups of people.
"Virtue signaling", as some like to call it, is not just some vain call for attention, to get a virtual high five. It's about letting marginalized people know that your company, group, whatever, is safe for them, and is trying to actively include them.
For sure, and to be fair, the male incubus is included in products like the 5th edition D&D MM, and was also included in one of the 4e supplements as well. I also agree with your observations about different racial/cultural assumptions. However, given that the audience is primarily western, and that others may not have as nuanced view toward in-world considerations, it’s not a huge surprise to me that developers use their limited art spaces for more iconic and immediately identifiable imagery.
I think this is just a byproduct of most adventurers being drawn to conflicts that need solving and naturally portray said adventurers as protagonists in the fight against evil, so naturally they’re going to be exposed to more negative aspects of all aspects of life. Hobgoblins, for example, portray a negative example of a militaristic society in D&D, which isn’t universally a negative societal structure. While it wouldn’t hurt to have positive depictions as well, they’re harder to include in an organic fashion, particularly in a work that prides itself on being grim and gritty.
Granted, though comfort or pride/culture might also come into play. This was more directed at the quips about a succubus still wearing clothes; so long as they need to infiltrate society to corrupt their prey, they’ll at least make a token effort at normalcy.
100% agreed, I’m anti-censorship, even self-censorship to the last. I just wanted to make it clear to the OP, who is running the kickstarter, that my personal convictions aren’t always economically viable. I’d prefer it if they were, though.
Here is where we absolutely disagree, art in no way shape or form is relevant to the ethics of the producers, if anything it merely indicates the genre and expectations of the work in question. An anime themed RPG might have every piece of art be heavily stylized with every character rocking a perfect body, a classic sword and sorcery game might have chainmail bikinis and barbarians with an affinity for body oil, and so on and so forth. None of those are exclusionary unless you’re not interested in participating in that fantasy, which can be the case regardless of your IRL qualities.
It never needed to be stated, though, especially since you’ve already concluded that the product in question is already exclusionary along a different axis. Point is, nothing stopped people from playing before statements like these, and after the statements are included groups of jerks are going to continue to remain jerk-ish.
Because it isn’t the right thing to do, full stop. It can be a choice they make, but making the blanket statement that doing so is morally correct is probably cutting to the core of my huge, huge issue with the concept. We’ve come to a point in time, where, as you said above, we try and extrapolate endorsements of ethics or politics from works that frankly aren’t there.
Up-thread Salamandyr is dead on the money when he talks about the shifting nature of the word ‘inclusive’, because that no longer means the inclusion of multiple groups, it means the inclusion of said groups in such a way that’s unambiguously supportive of them, which is a ridiculous box to try and force designers into, and in many ways is insulting to the groups in question. A topical example of this is the current storm in a teacup surrounding Beauty and the Beast, which features the first confirmed gay character in a Disney film, and there are still cultural critics flipping out because he’s a simpering henchman to the villain. Basically if your inclusiveness doesn’t include the full gamut of negative and positive possibilities, it’s definitely not worth it.
Agreed. All I’ve ever asked is that a given work sticks to its guns creatively, if it can allow for all ethnicities/cultures/etc to be present, then yeah, go to town. I simply resent it when a work tries to be more focused (for any number of reasons) and people cry about it.
Also, again, I guess that women won't complain about nudity when an equal amount of men are in a state of undress and are presented in the same (tittilating or not) way. I surely don't
Absolutely, parity between all tastes and depictions should be considered.
Daniel D. Fox
Explorer
Thanks for the support! The lady in question is an Illusionist, a practitioner of Shadowmancy:
Illusionists rarely congregate or stay in one place. Curious, restless and beset by wanderlust, they spend their lives on the road ever in the pursuit of occult knowledge. Illusionists prefer to remain inconspicuous, for their endless pursuit for the arcane takes them to dark places – dark places that might be seen as ‘evil’ by those ignorant of the esoteric arts. Knowing that this can bring them to the attention of witch hunters, they tend to slip into the night and shadows or travel under another guise. Their mix of the esoteric and the practical, scholarship and worldliness, gives them a curious skillset – unheard of for arcanists, they have a knack for swordsmanship, used to travel and are skilled diplomats. Their vow of pragmatism and poverty aids their diplomatic skills, as they cannot be easily persuaded by coin or worldly goods.
However, upon these roads less traveled, these grey pilgrims can become twisted by their own sense of secrecy. The constant need for secrecy and to hide their motives, means that Illusionists feel better prepared to hide their infernal pursuits should their search for knowledge and secrets take them in such a direction. Despite being masters of deception, witch hunters have an uncanny knack to sniff out renegade illusionists.
doctorbadwolf
Heretic of The Seventh Circle
[MENTION=55033]Moniker[/MENTION] interesting! Thanks!
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