Nudity, inclusivity and racial representation in RPGs

tomBitonti

Adventurer
The newer Warhammer is tamer than the old. Depictions of Slaneesh, in the old style, are deliberately provocative, and try to be disturbing. That's in theme, but not for children. Similarly for some of the Cultex Assassins, which in my view are gratuitous, as are the Sororitas.

Nudity which fits a scene, say, huddled prisoners with rags to wear, is fine. The issue is whether the nudity is a feature of a scene, or if it is a focus of the scene.

Also, to say, everyday folks aren't titillating as nudes. That's not to say there is nothing to see of interest, as a study of the human form, or of our shared humanity, or as an expressing the subjects history. It's a narrow view that forces nudity to be sexual.

My two cents; kind-of rambling now.

TomB
 

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Nudity which fits a scene, say, huddled prisoners with rags to wear, is fine. The issue is whether the nudity is a feature of a scene, or if it is a focus of the scene.

Also, to say, everyday folks aren't titillating as nudes. That's not to say there is nothing to see of interest, as a study of the human form, or of our shared humanity, or as an expressing the subjects history. It's a narrow view that forces nudity to be sexual.

In my opinion there's nothing wrong with the images of some creatures being a little titillating. Creatures such as Nymphs, Succubi and Dryads are fine if they are a little sexy. I don't see why anyone would be offended by that.
 

Dualazi

First Post
A very…complicated topic, but since it’s being broadly discussed in the context of RPGs as a whole, I’ll give my two coppers for what it’s worth.

Nudity/sexual content:

From a conceptual standpoint, there’s nothing wrong with it. Whether it’s gratuitous or not is up to questions of context, and there is a time and place for said gratuity, but typically I’d rather not give it undue focus. Simply acknowledge that it exists and is important in some facets of life and move along with it.

That said, I wouldn’t expect it to come up very much outside of the typical foes who exemplify negative traits/temptations surrounding sex, such as harpies, succubi, nymphs etc. Even foes who are of poor intellect will clothe themselves for comfort or protection, as even a troll who regenerates quickly will likely cover up simply to reduce painful interactions with the environment.

More practically speaking though, you’re going to have to come to terms with the fact that this is going to lose you sales in some respect, either because the buyer is squeamish about that content or because it’s a parent who doesn’t want their kids exposed to it. I’d rather art be as uncensored as their creators want it to be, but that doesn’t always play nice with economic realities.

Inclusivity:

Utterly worthless. Anecdotally speaking, I have never had a player comment on the lack of ‘representation’ as a reason for not playing tabletop RPGs. Far more often it’s an issue of time constraints, shyness, or reluctance to learn the rules. In this instance it’s particularly weird, since this isn’t a game or setting where those social issues (specifically in regards to sexuality) would seem to come up, like, at all. Unless you play in a group that regularly ERPs, then I doubt the dragon burning the countryside gives a crap about what’s between your legs. It very much feels like cheap pandering. Derren hit the nail on the head here:

As long as it is appropriate but in my opinion those who make big announcements about being inclusive do it either only as marketing gig, do it in preemptive obedience because they fear a internet shitstorm as some minority might object or because they think that because they do something those people will dislike (nudity and sexual representation of woman) they have to gather bonus points by including LGBT to cancel the negativity out.

More broadly speaking, I have yet to see any hard, quantifying data suggesting that elements of ‘inclusivity’ lead to a direct increase in TTRPG sales. Even more annoying is when it’s included in places it doesn’t belong. An RPG set in ancient Japan wouldn’t have people of Nordic or African stock running around, and including them in such a product would actively detract from its value.

In summary, to me this is just virtue signaling for clicks. As far as artwork goes keep the nudity where appropriate but this social justice crap in a setting/game where it has little relevance is just an insulting degree of pandering.
 

tomBitonti

Adventurer
In my opinion there's nothing wrong with the images of some creatures being a little titillating. Creatures such as Nymphs, Succubi and Dryads are fine if they are a little sexy. I don't see why anyone would be offended by that.

Agreed. Although, there are a lot of ways to do that, not just by removing clothing.

Whether offense is taken is complicated, since it based on characteristics of the viewer, who is free to have a different outlook than the artist. Whether offense that is taken is reasonable is perhaps a better question. But a very contentious one.

Thx!
TomB
 

billd91

Not your screen monkey (he/him)
Inclusivity:

Utterly worthless. Anecdotally speaking, I have never had a player comment on the lack of ‘representation’ as a reason for not playing tabletop RPGs. Far more often it’s an issue of time constraints, shyness, or reluctance to learn the rules. In this instance it’s particularly weird, since this isn’t a game or setting where those social issues (specifically in regards to sexuality) would seem to come up, like, at all. Unless you play in a group that regularly ERPs, then I doubt the dragon burning the countryside gives a crap about what’s between your legs. It very much feels like cheap pandering. Derren hit the nail on the head here:



More broadly speaking, I have yet to see any hard, quantifying data suggesting that elements of ‘inclusivity’ lead to a direct increase in TTRPG sales. Even more annoying is when it’s included in places it doesn’t belong. An RPG set in ancient Japan wouldn’t have people of Nordic or African stock running around, and including them in such a product would actively detract from its value.

In summary, to me this is just virtue signaling for clicks. As far as artwork goes keep the nudity where appropriate but this social justice crap in a setting/game where it has little relevance is just an insulting degree of pandering.

And, as a counter point, anecdotally, I have seen a number of players comment that they become a lot more comfortable with RPGs when they started seeing art depicting characters more like them in positive ways, particularly from female and African-American gamers. Paizo has also been getting a lot of positive feedback from LGBT gamers through their inclusion of characters that don't fit heteronormative assumptions. So I think your and Derren's comments on inclusivity are wide of the mark.
 


Derren

Hero
Paizo has also been getting a lot of positive feedback from LGBT gamers through their inclusion of characters that don't fit heteronormative assumptions. So I think your and Derren's comments on inclusivity are wide of the mark.

If you want to think so.
The difference is, Paizo simply started to be inclusive because they wanted to. Its as easy as that. But when people instead make big talks about how inclusive they will be I wonder what their real motivation is.
 

Lylandra

Adventurer
A very…complicated topic, but since it’s being broadly discussed in the context of RPGs as a whole, I’ll give my two coppers for what it’s worth.

Nudity/sexual content:

From a conceptual standpoint, there’s nothing wrong with it. Whether it’s gratuitous or not is up to questions of context, and there is a time and place for said gratuity, but typically I’d rather not give it undue focus. Simply acknowledge that it exists and is important in some facets of life and move along with it.

That said, I wouldn’t expect it to come up very much outside of the typical foes who exemplify negative traits/temptations surrounding sex, such as harpies, succubi, nymphs etc. Even foes who are of poor intellect will clothe themselves for comfort or protection, as even a troll who regenerates quickly will likely cover up simply to reduce painful interactions with the environment.

More practically speaking though, you’re going to have to come to terms with the fact that this is going to lose you sales in some respect, either because the buyer is squeamish about that content or because it’s a parent who doesn’t want their kids exposed to it. I’d rather art be as uncensored as their creators want it to be, but that doesn’t always play nice with economic realities.

I agree that there's nothing wrong with people or creatures who use "sexy" as a way to define themselves (because they like displaying it in a given circumstance) or to use "sexy" to gain an advantage (sexually active creatures who like to attract humanoids or other species). Nudity does not have to equal sexy, but it can, and if it does one should make really really sure that the artist knows what he/she is doing or it descends down to cheap titillation land quite quickly.

However, and again, a pet peeve of mine: Don't reduce "sexy" to "looking like sexy human(oid) females". From the ongoing discussion, I see a lot of talk about creatures like harpies, succubi etc. and guess what? They are all traditionally female. And use the beauty standards of us (western) humans. What I'd like to see is 1) beauty standards *other* than what you can find in a Victoria's Secret catalogue (because even if a succubus wants to seduce, she'd have a hard time seducing a dwarf without displaying a beard and some muscles, for example) and 2) male characters/creatures in the same "sexy type" roles you'd typically see women in. Because, you know, women like to see a cute guy as much as men like to see a cute girl.

Which leads me to another point: I am totally against using sexuality in predominantly negative contexts. Especially when paired with the general trope that all sexy monsters are female. This sends out a message that can be very harmful for women who like to embrace their sexuality: Sex is bad, women only try to seduce men and if men fall for the sexy ladies, they'll end up as prey. This trope, which can be seen often throughout our fictional past stems from a desire to control the sexual habitus of people: Good girls don't like sex and dress modestly (they only sleep with their husband and only after marriage) and good boys won't be lead astray by "harlots".

Regarding nudity: You will dress for protection only if your skin is thin/sensitive enough to get hurt by your envirnonment. Or if you don't have protective body hair.

I agree that sales can be an argument, but this is not for us to decide. I, for example, wouldn't expect to expose children to a darker, grittier RPG setting because such settings in general are not the most kid-friendly ones. And from a German point of view, nudity wouldn't be the main reason why I would keep the book away from young children, but the to be expected depictions of lethal violence.

Inclusivity:

Utterly worthless. Anecdotally speaking, I have never had a player comment on the lack of ‘representation’ as a reason for not playing tabletop RPGs. Far more often it’s an issue of time constraints, shyness, or reluctance to learn the rules. In this instance it’s particularly weird, since this isn’t a game or setting where those social issues (specifically in regards to sexuality) would seem to come up, like, at all. Unless you play in a group that regularly ERPs, then I doubt the dragon burning the countryside gives a crap about what’s between your legs. It very much feels like cheap pandering. Derren hit the nail on the head here:

More broadly speaking, I have yet to see any hard, quantifying data suggesting that elements of ‘inclusivity’ lead to a direct increase in TTRPG sales. Even more annoying is when it’s included in places it doesn’t belong. An RPG set in ancient Japan wouldn’t have people of Nordic or African stock running around, and including them in such a product would actively detract from its value.

In summary, to me this is just virtue signaling for clicks. As far as artwork goes keep the nudity where appropriate but this social justice crap in a setting/game where it has little relevance is just an insulting degree of pandering.

Nonsense. I, for example, take a close eye on fantasy art. It tells so much about the ethical point of view of a system's design crew and the intended target audience. Inclusive art just says "this is for everyone!". Now, I guess ZWEIHANDER isn't really age inclusive (read: not for kids), but that's fine for me. Stating your inclusivity is the same as stating your design perspective. Saying that this statement is made only for "cheap marketing" is a slap in the face of every designer who believes in diversity in RPG design because he/she thinks it is the right thing to do.

For representation, yes, a setting can include certain cultures and be very specific about it. You also wouldn't see white people in your feudal japanese setting, but maybe something akin to the Ainu or chinese/mongol immigrants. In contrast, a setting which focuses medieval europe can easily include black or arabic people. A general, setting-less system shouldn't be too exclusive, however.

Also, again, I guess that women won't complain about nudity when an equal amount of men are in a state of undress and are presented in the same (tittilating or not) way. I surely don't ;)
 

billd91

Not your screen monkey (he/him)
If you want to think so.
The difference is, Paizo simply started to be inclusive because they wanted to. Its as easy as that. But when people instead make big talks about how inclusive they will be I wonder what their real motivation is.

Uh, huh. Did you ever think to take them at their word that it's in support of personal convictions? Or is this today's homophobic/transphobic "gay agenda" conspiracy?
 

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