Sage Advice (18 May 2015)

El Mahdi said:

As DM, if you were to sheathe your melee weapon while engaged in melee combat (in a situation that would require you to take the Disengage Action to avoid an Opportunity Attack), my ruling would be that you trigger an Opportunity Attack.

As a certain Dark Lord of the Sith once said: You are unwise to lower your defenses.

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I wouldn't characterize firing a crossbow point-blank at somebody's face as lowering your defences.

In your example above, if you are moving from target to target to make your melee attacks, you haven't accounted for taking Disengage Actions (or the movement).


The Crossbow Expert Feat eliminates disadvantage for making a ranged attack within 5 feet of a hostile creature.

It does not eliminate the need for Disengaging, or make you immune to Opportunity Attacks.

I think that the Rules as Intended mean that when in melee combat, you have to actively maintain your melee engagement or use the Disengage Action to leave your threatened square. As long as you are in that threatened square your opponent is attacking. You can't just sheathe your weapon while somebody is in your face attacking you with a melee weapon; at least if you don't want to give them a free shot at you that is.

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I think the assumption is that the bearer of the feat is standing toe to toe with his/her opponent. Of course he/she would have to use an action to disengage if leaving his/her opponent's reach. That's always the case and really isn't a critique of the use of the feat you quoted.

Imposing an opportunity attack for sheathing a weapon, and not moving out of reach, doesn't make a lot of sense if you consider that a character that doesn't have a melee weapon in the first place isn't going to incur an opportunity attack just for standing there, and as I said above, the character with Crossbow Expert still has a crossbow pointed at his/her opponent, and the idea is that he/she is trained to use the crossbow in a melee context.

I'm several pages behind and have no intention of trying to catch up, but in case this hasn't been said...

El Mahdi said:

So I guess then, as Obryn said, Rapier+hand-crossbow is out to a certain extent. One could be holding both and attack with both in the same round (with Crossbow Expert Feat), but only once, and then would have to sheathe the rapier in order to reload the hand-crossbow, or stow the hand-crossbow in order to draw a second weapon the following round

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You can actually do this easier by simply dropping the rapier and then picking it up as a free object interaction.

It looks dumb, but it works. I personally allow characters to use their free object interaction to hold their weapon under their arm or in their shield hand, etc, so as to free up a hand for spellcasting or reloading ammo provided they aren't accomplishing anything they couldn't accomplish by dropping the weapon and picking it back up. Since the rules allow you to drop and scoop it up, I just allow them to mechanically mimic that while maintaining control over the visualizations.

El Mahdi said:

That's illogical. If you're not trying to "win points" then why keep replying? You have the choice to not reply. As charismatic as many posters feel they may be, there's no way anybody here can make you do anything against your will.

That means you're still replying because you choose to. Because there is something you want.

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You are right. And you don't have to respond to me if you want me to go away. But until then, I have to refute your points.

Are you trying to get MerricB to say he was wrong? Is that what you want?

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Never asked for that. I just wanted people to understand that:

• Yes, I was a dick in the way I responded, but I did so out of reaction to something that i mistakenly thought was a slight to Mr. Gygax.
• I admitted from 2nd post I was wrong, yet everyone wants to lecture me as if I don't understand I was wrong.
• I think that Merric B jumped the gun by calling me a troll and then lecturing me on Netiquette. Calling someone a troll on the Internet is akin (IMHO) to yelling the N-word in South Central.

It is very interesting that even though I have admitted I was a jerk and was wrong in my post, everyone wants to lecture me about it.

The problem with that though, is I don't believe he thinks he's wrong

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I realize that. He was correct in my mistake. However he comes across as demeaning. He is the only person who I have problems with. Even though I disagree with you, you are okay. You seem to have a decent personality and you are not talking down to me. Merric talks down to me.

So why else keep posting, keep pursuing that apology? Isn't the very pursuit of that apology, metaphorically speaking, "trying to win points"?

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It would be nice if Merric B would try to bring an olive branch, but I don't expect it.

There are plenty of other possibilities, with the one that seems most likely to me being it was merely an expression of his emotions.

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I totally agree. Just don't call people a troll, unless that is proven, which takes more than one post.

Engaging in mind-reading of other posters is always a recipe for bad things, especially in a medium devoid of cues such as vocal tone, inflection, and body language.

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The way he called me a troll was very easy to get. He relished that he caught a troll and was giving him his due, esentially rubbing it in my face. Uncool. Very uncool.

You likely came to ENWorld for a reason (unless a random dice roll made you come here ).

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I came here to see what was up with 5e. Somehow google landed me in this thread. So it was kind of random. I saw the title and thought the thread was about Sage Advice, not realizing its about some rule thing.

Do you really want the totality of your experience and history here to be an insulting first post, one not about the subject being discussed, and followed by nothing but arguing over that first post? (And at the risk of offending you more (though not my intention), aren't those the very definitions of trolling and thread-crapping?)

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I thought it was over after I said my peace right away (I do have a right to say I feel slighted). It is y'al who are beating a dead horse. If you continue to lecture me, I will continue to respond. Otherwise you will probably never see me again.

What is it you want out of ENWorld? I can't help but think that so far you haven't had the experience you were looking for. Maybe it's time to let it go and start over.

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I came here to see what people thought of 5e. As WotC has been kind of irresponsible with D&D since Hasbro become involved and Peter Adkinson was basically shooed out the door. I don't think the mistakes of 4e, the messing up of Forgotten Realms, and all the problems with marketing miniatures would have happened if WotC had remained independent. And we might still have a print Dragon and Dungeon magazines.

How about this to get the ball rolling:

What are your thoughts on Crawford's interpretations?
I don't know what they are. I hit this thread by accident.
How do you think it will impact the game?
How does it impact your view of the game?
Does this impact how you'll play the game in the future?

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I hit this thread by accident. I don't play D&D anymore. I was pretty much done with them when I discovered games that were not level/class based. It will not affect me because I am not playing 5e. I have a current "Rise of Tiamat" campaign group playing under Savage Worlds.

And Welcome to ENWorld.

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Last time I visited ENWorld was 2009, when I signed up. Maybe I will be back in 6 years when the new edition comes out. Otherwise I mainly post at RPG.net. And I have never been called a troll there.

El Mahdi said:

The problem with that though, is I don't believe he thinks he's wrong, and everybody else that has replied to you (except Dausuul) have also said they don't think he was wrong (including me). The odds of getting what you want (if that's what you want) are slim to none; likely a futile endeavor. So why else keep posting, keep pursuing that apology? Isn't the very pursuit of that apology, metaphorically speaking, "trying to win points"?
.

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to be fair if it is a futile endeavor then cleary he just needs to close his eyes roll his lucky die and take a shot at it!


but back to topic.

I'm sure that an expert xbow user could load a small xbow with 1 hand while holding something in the other. slip the bow between the knees cock it and slide in the bolt. Presto! granted realism is out the window in terms of melee combat, but not unreasonable if they are at range.

Chryssis said:

I'm sure that an expert xbow user could load a small xbow with 1 hand while holding something in the other. slip the bow between the knees cock it and slide in the bolt. Presto! granted realism is out the window in terms of melee combat, but not unreasonable if they are at range.

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A crossbow has a higher draw weight than a longbow. That is why you can draw the longbow with one hand. A crossbow is designed to let you put much more force in the bolt, by holding the draw mechanically. That is why bolts penetrate better than arrows. It was this power that had the crossbow declared as the ultimate weapon when it was introduced in Europe (it was already in use in the Orient years before).

However, with the high draw strength, it is very difficult to draw one handed (unless you don't care about your back). You can use a crank one handed but it takes longer, and it still needs to be braced.

However, this is a fantasy game. Real middle age bowmen did not have the skills of those in the game. There were no Legolas' running around. Most of the bowmen were the worst trained of the soldiers, and would usually be slaughtered once the enemy broke the lines. Most of the time they fired in the air in an arc as a group on the hopes that some will accidentally hit the enemy. So the real weapons are not a good model when emulating high fantasy fiction.

As for "slipping it between the knees," crossbows had a bracket on the front end to put your foot in while you pulled the string back with both arms . Essentially you are using two arms and a leg to reload it. So you should not be able to move or have a free hand for melee. And your defense is compromised because it is hard to dodge while loading. An unnaturally high strength might be able to overcome the problem.

Hriston said:

I wouldn't characterize firing a crossbow point-blank at somebody's face as lowering your defences.

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Really?!?!
In your experience, hand-crossbows are effective at parrying melee weapons?
A momentary threat provides defense for an entire 6-seconds or so of combat?

So after they shoot, how are they defending them self with their sword in it's sheath?

Hriston said:

I think the assumption is that the bearer of the feat is standing toe to toe with his/her opponent.

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Exactly. Standing toe to toe with an opponent that is actively attacking them with a melee weapon. Taking the time to sheathe a weapon, namely the weapon one is using to fend off the melee attacks of your opponent, is a very bad thing.

For me it's a case of using the rules, not letting the rules use you. The reality of combat is that a hand crossbow is a momentary threat which once fired is no longer a danger. Even if the Crossbow Expert Feat allows a reload quick enough that it doesn't affect your action economy, it still does take time, even if just a millisecond; time that an opponent engaged in melee combat can exploit.

Nobody would ever do this in real-life because to do so would mean death. Therefore that's not how it's done in my games.

Hriston said:

Imposing an opportunity attack for sheathing a weapon, and not moving out of reach, doesn't make a lot of sense if you consider that a character that doesn't have a melee weapon in the first place isn't going to incur an opportunity attack just for standing there...

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By RAW, you are right. But my post wasn't about RAW, it was about my ruling based on what I see as RAI. In my games, unless one is specifically trained in unarmed combat against armed foes, such as a Monk, one cannot defend them self in melee combat without a melee weapon - thus, they provoke an attack of opportunity for dropping or stowing their weapon and not disengaging.

The reason why a disengage action exists is two-fold: one, the game needed a mechanic for someone to move away from an opponent without provoking an attack of opportunity, one balanced by the expenditure of an action economy resource; and two, the conceit is that a combat round consists of a constant trading of blows, parries, and feints - not just one single attack. Because of this conceit, I see the Rules as Intended to mean that one cannot drop their defenses during melee combat unless one actively disengages from that combat.

Hriston said:

and as I said above, the character with Crossbow Expert still has a crossbow pointed at his/her opponent, and the idea is that he/she is trained to use the crossbow in a melee context.

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Yes, they are trained in that manner, and receive a specific benefit: they don't suffer disadvantage for the shot. That's it. No amount of training can make a hand-crossbow something it is not; specifically, a melee weapon able to defend one in melee combat. I see their training as primarily focused on fast, precise loading, and secondarily as being experienced at snapping off a shot during melee; but that doesn't make them immune from the need to continuously defend themselves through the entire round.

What kerleth posted may be RAW, though I didn't evaluate it in the context of RAW so I'm not sure; but it certainly is not consistent with real combat, and I believe counter to Rules as Intended.

ericphillips said:

If you continue to lecture me, I will continue to respond. Otherwise you will probably never see me again.

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Ahh...now I understand. As long as everybody shuts up and lets you have the last word, everything will be fine.

Good luck with that.

I'm out.

El Mahdi said:

Ahh...now I understand. As long as everybody shuts up and lets you have the last word, everything will be fine.

Good luck with that.

I'm out.

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Again you mischaracterize me. But you will never admit it. You believe what you believe.

ericphillips said:

But until then, I have to refute your points.

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No, you don't.

I'm a lawyer who specializes in copyright matters. For a long time, I got involved with each and every discussion on ENWorld's boards in which someone advocated some form of IP violation, even if it was minor. I'd see some of the various anti-copyright/pro-piracy catchphrases, and- quick as I could- I'd don my armor, mount my white Percheron, and charge into the the fray. And I wouldn't leave until the other side relented.

Then I saw this.
View attachment 68444

After that, I'd still post in those threads. But I was brief and to the point. Sometimes, I merely posted a link or 2 to other, prior discussions. And then I'd let go.

For me, this has translated into a slightly better sleep schedule and better control over my blood pressure. IOW, I'm healthier since I learned to let go of Internet debate death spirals. Even if I'm 100% right; even if I'm 100% misunderstood, there comes a time to simply let it be.

Dannyalcatraz said:

No, you don't.

I'm a lawyer who specializes in copyright matters. For a long time, I got involved with each and every discussion on ENWorld's boards in which someone advocated some form of IP violation, even if it was minor. I'd see some of the various anti-copyright/pro-piracy catchphrases, and- quick as I could- I'd don my armor, mount my white Percheron, and charge into the the fray. And I wouldn't leave until the other side relented.

Then I saw this.
View attachment 68444

After that, I'd still post in those threads. But I was brief and to the point. Sometimes, I merely posted a link or 2 to other, prior discussions. And then I'd let go.

For me, this has translated into a slightly better sleep schedule and better control over my blood pressure. IOW, I'm healthier since I learned to let go of Internet debate death spirals. Even if I'm 100% right; even if I'm 100% misunderstood, there comes a time to simply let it be.

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So damn true. I still have trouble stopping myself sometimes.