D&D 5E Guns and D&D - are we doing it wrong? An alternative

[jasper]

That's a fundamental failure to understand the problem.

Your first example involves a 10th level wizard which is something of a rare commodity.

Your second example involves a like 16th level fighter or ranger or something, which is even a rarer commodity.

Your third example involves a 0th level commoner. If suddenly every 0th level commoner can pull a semi-automatic handgun out and fire 3 shots in six seconds, that is not only game changing that's genre changing. That isn't even like super hard verisimilitude. That's just the implications of technology as opposed to magic. Technology democratizes power. There is no restriction on who can pickup a pistol and fire it to lethal effect. Even if your pistol is just a glorified rapid fire crossbow, the fact that anyone can fire three times in six seconds totally changes the dynamics of the game.

Even if all you are modeling are flintlock muskets, the gap between a 1st level warrior and a 10th level wizard just got a whole lot smaller. You don't have to be uber realistic. All you have is a one shot bang stick that justifies its existence by being a good bit harder hitting than a bow. If you get up to modelling modern firearms, a team of 1st or 2nd level hobgoblin fighters with modern weaponry like assault rifles, sniper rifles, grenades, and light machine guns absolutely is a threat to 10th level characters - whether in 1e, 3e, or even more so because of 5e's bounded accuracy.

and you missed ..If Colt then guns are common and simple weapons and we start out with a hand crossbow as base and change the range. If rifleman then Martial I use light crossbow for pistol and long bow for rifles....
So you get one trigger pull per attack.
So commoner is +2 to hit with is flintlock, colt, glock, M-16, .22 rifle. If COLt.
If Martial then a commoner is +0 to hit with his musket, colt, glock, m16, .22 rifle.
A mage is 9 th level caster with an 8d6 fireball. (Sorry I still stuck on 1E where level = d6) and looking at all the tier 2 modules, a mage is quite common.
If Martial then so call assault rifles have 10, 20, or 30 ammo before reloads. Range same as longbow.
If sniper rifle 1 to 10 ammo before reload. Range is treated same as longbow with no mod for long range.
Nades = fireball.
LMG will need discussion ...
TLDR. GUNS = BOWS with Loud BANG.

 

[Minigiant]

Again this is genre issue.

If you stick to the heroic fantasy default of core basic rules 5e, within genre guns are just expensive, low range, higher damage crossbows.

Useless out to the hands of massed troops or specialized warriors.

Change genre. Change the rules. This goes for guns AND swords.

 

[Chaosmancer]

No Howard never tried to sugar coat what Conan did and make it out to be some grand good deed. It was just savagery and he embraced it.

So... what?

You don't think I could find an author from the 1900's who tried to sugar coat an awful deed as some grand deed? You think that because some modern writers are hacks with bad opinions that all writers of the last 20 years have no conception of morality? Because some people find morality in the justness of their cause and the necessity of their action, instead of from the medieval conceptions of honor that were meant to ensure that the rich and wealthy could not be challenged by the poor all modern writers lack a concept of morality?

Which take am I supposed to have from you simultaneously defending Conan as "just savagery" while declaring that modern writers are lacking in morals?

 

[Celebrim]

and you missed ...

No aside from the details, you missed the point.

From the OP: "So far the approach has been to have them be a bit like an "extra" crossbow...I've never been fully satisfied with this state of affair."

 

[jasper]

No aside from the details, you missed the point.

From the OP: "So far the approach has been to have them be a bit like an "extra" crossbow...I've never been fully satisfied with this state of affair."

you expect me to remember the op post after 10 pages. i have trouble following my replies.

 

[nevin]

So... what?

You don't think I could find an author from the 1900's who tried to sugar coat an awful deed as some grand deed? You think that because some modern writers are hacks with bad opinions that all writers of the last 20 years have no conception of morality? Because some people find morality in the justness of their cause and the necessity of their action, instead of from the medieval conceptions of honor that were meant to ensure that the rich and wealthy could not be challenged by the poor all modern writers lack a concept of morality?

Which take am I supposed to have from you simultaneously defending Conan as "just savagery" while declaring that modern writers are lacking in morals?

no most modern writers tend to use relative morality which means your morals are determined by the situation rather than actually having morals. My point wash didn't do that. Sure you can find lots of things to gripe about conan but trying to pin moral relativity on him doesn't really work.

 

[Vaalingrade]

Let's not try and paint protagonist centered morality as moral relativism.

 

[Umbran]

What the heck does this moral relativism stuff have to do with modeling firearms in D&D?

Please, back to the topic, folks.

 

[Laurefindel]

The one campaign I DM that featured guns (and cannons and firework-like missiles) were basically the martial equivalent of save-for-half-damage spells. All dealt some automatic damage, Dex save for half. Handgun had a range (a short-ish one, like 30ft I think). Within range it was something like 4d6, save for half. Above that range, save for no damage instead. This was part of an exercise to give martial and non-magic monsters different types of fireball-like effects (giants had a smash and stomp AoE effect for example).

Pistols and mortars were effective combat openers; fire once for AoE/automatic damage, then discard. Reloading couldn’t be done in combat. Then proceed to regular D&D combat.

It wasn’t perfect but if anything, it gave them a distinct identity from bows/crossbows.

 

[cbwjm]

I typically just make pistols a d8 weapon, rifles ad10 weapon, and a blunderbuss a piercing version of burning hands.

They all have the loading property.

From that I then add some fantasy elements, such as magical ammunition that instead deals or adds energy damage (the same can be done for bows and crossbows), or effects like tracking that grants advantage.

I might also add some more advanced guns that can fire 2 or more shots before requiring reloading.

The common soldier, if the guns are widespread, might shoot once then engage in melee, or they might have a line of riflemen much as they'd have a line of archers. Otherwise, riflemen and guns are smaller elite units.