Metamagicked scroll copied into spellbook question

Greenfield · Jan 27, 2019

Jef Gorbach said:
Some quick research confirms RAW although whomever writes the metamagic version down must have the prerequisite feats, the subsequent users of the scroll do not per RAW and must only make a Spellcraft(DC 15 +spell level, -2 if within their specialty school) to copy it into their spellbook, where it’s a spell of whatever level the metamagic increased it to.

Regarding your example, a wizard using Elemental Spell(+1) to change a Fireball(SL3) to do Cold damage would know the altered version as a 4th level spell they could either cast or write down.

Someone else finding the scroll could transfer it to their own spellbook with a successful Spellcraft(19) check; from which they could memorize/cast it like any other 4th level spell they know. However it will only do Cold damage unless they know Elemental Spell to rechange it.

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<source: www.d20pfsrd.com; I bolded relevant sentences>

Scribe Scroll (Item Creation)
You can create magic scrolls.
Prerequisite: Caster level 1st.
Benefit: You can create a scroll of any spell that you know. Scribing a scroll takes 2 hours if its base price is 250 gp or less, otherwise scribing a scroll takes 1 day for each 1,000 gp in its base price. To scribe a scroll, you must use up raw materials costing half of this base price.
See magic item creation rules for more information.

Magic Items and Metamagic Spells:
With the right item creation feat, you can store a metamagic version of a spell in a scroll, potion, or wand. Level limits for potions and wands apply to the spell’s higher spell level (after the application of the metamagic feat). A character doesn’t need the metamagic feat to activate an item storing a metamagic version of a spell.

Sidebox faq: At what spell level does a spell modified by a metamagic feat count for purposes of concentration DCs, magus spell recall, or a pearl of power?
The spell counts as the level of the spell slot necessary to cast it.
For example, an empowered burning hands uses a 3rd-level spell slot, counts as a 3rd-level spell for making concentration checks, counts as a 3rd-level spell for a magus’s spell recall or a pearl of power.

Spells Copied from Another’s Spellbook or a Scroll
A wizard can also add a spell to his book whenever he encounters one on a magic scroll or in another wizard’s spellbook. No matter what the spell’s source, the wizard must first decipher the magical writing (see Arcane Magical Writings). Next, he must spend 1 hour studying the spell. At the end of the hour, he must make a Spellcraft check (DC 15 + spell’s level). A wizard who has specialized in a school of spells gains a +2 bonus on the Spellcraft check if the new spell is from his specialty school. If the check succeeds, the wizard understands the spell and can copy it into his spellbook (see Writing a New Spell into a Spellbook). The process leaves a spellbook that was copied from unharmed, but a spell successfully copied from a magic scroll disappears from the parchment.

If the check fails, the wizard cannot understand or copy the spell. He cannot attempt to learn or copy that spell again until one week has passed. If the spell was from a scroll, a failed Spellcraft check does not cause the spell to vanish.

So, according to that a Wizard can, with the appropriate creation feat, store a metamagicked spell in a scroll, potion or wand. I observe that it doesn't say "spellbook".

It also says that they can copy a spell from a scroll into their book. It doesn't say that they can copy the spell, plus metamagic, into a book.

Now, to be clear, we are talking two separate game systems here: You're quoting the Pathfinder SRD, while I'm using 3.5. But, from your own quotes I still don't see the metamagic version of a spell landing in a spell book. The spell is still Fireball, not Iceball as some have called it.

But there's a way around the rules in Pathfinder: According to the rules for item creation, the item creator can ignore one prerequisite if they can beat the Spellcraft check by five (5) points.

Looking at the process for creating a scroll, knowledge of the spell is explicitly listed as a "prerequisite". (Don't take my word for it, since I really don't play Pathfinder. Check for yourselves.) That makes the creation of new spells pretty easy. (Too easy in my opinion, but that's a topic for another discussion.) Obviously you need to talk to the DM about such "new" spells. He/she may add additional adjustments to that roll, the end spell level or effects, or may outlaw it all together.

Still, using that admittedly questionable approach to the rules, you should be able to invent Iceball as a 3rd level spell. The area, damage and Save are comparable to Fireball, and it's actually a bit weaker, since it can't set unattended items on fire. You could rebalance that by having it extinguish unattended flames. (i.e. you can cover/protect your torch, but not your campfire).

That's a perfectly justifiable spell at 3rd level, at least in my view. (DM's mileage may vary.) But in the end it isn't a metamagicked Fireball, it's a whole new spell, comparable in area, Save and damage.

How's that for a resolution to this issue?

ElectricDragon · Jan 27, 2019

I agree with Greenfield, metamagic feats do not transfer to the spellbook with the spell. And learning spells does not include metamagic feats.

Jef Gorbach · Feb 4, 2019

Overlooked the OP was referring to v3+, however http://www.d20srd.org uses the same referenced text, so the quoted portions remain valid and why I respectively disagree with Greenfield/ElectricDragon for a very simple reason: RAW clearly states you dont need the feats to use the scroll as-written; therefore the version copied into your spellbook remains modified since you dont know how to undo whatever changes had been made to the base version.

However instead of "Iceball", I suggest indexing the copied spell as "Fireball(cold)" on your list of known spells and notate the full-text printout in your character's binder it had been copied from a metamagic scroll which had modified it using Energy Substitution to do Cold damage to minimize future questions (I do this for easier reference @table, especially for complex spells like Summon XXX needing the corresponding stat-blocks handy for efficient use).

Greenfield · Feb 5, 2019

You touched on a few points I'd like to explore.

First, to be clear, the spell is Fireball, not Iceball or even Fireball(Cold). It's an important point because the rules say that "A wizard can also add a spell to his book whenever he encounters one on a magic scroll or in another wizard’s spellbook". Since the spell is Fireball, not Iceball or Fireball(Cold), then per the rules it's Fireball that can be copied.

Second, if the wording is exactly the same between 3.5 and Pathfinder, then my earlier point is more solidly grounded: Per the rules quoted: "With the right item creation feat, you can store a metamagic version of a spell in a scroll, potion, or wand.". Scroll, potion or wand. "Spellbook" is conspicuous in its absence.

In fact, that point/argument that you brought up is a red herring. We aren't talking about Creating a magic item (Scroll). We're talking about destroying one, using it up. So what you can or can't do when creating the item is irrelevant.

The subject at hand is "creating" an entry in a spell book. Per the rules you can scribe a *SPELL* from a scroll. The *SPELL* in our example is Fireball. It may have some bells and whistles, good sound system and chrome spinner wheel covers, but it's still Fireball. The Metamagic gets left behind because, while it may be part of the scroll, it isn't part of the spell.

Shasarak · Feb 6, 2019

@Greenfield its OK man, just rule it whatever way you want to rule.

Greenfield · Feb 7, 2019

Sorry, I wasn't trying to scream. should have used italics.

Jef Gorbach · Feb 16, 2019

"The subject at hand is "creating" an entry in a spell book. Per the rules you can scribe a *SPELL* from a scroll. The *SPELL* in our example is Fireball. It may have some bells and whistles, good sound system and chrome spinner wheel covers, but it's still Fireball. The Metamagic gets left behind because, while it may be part of the scroll, it isn't part of the spell."

Disagree, the author scribed a Cold Fireball which how/why anyone using the scroll casts it including the metamagic adjustments. RAW says you are copying the spell on the scroll, thus the copied version is the Cold Fireball; unless the copier both has the metamagic feats used AND intentionally rewrites it without the metamagic modifications.

IRL, its like finding a Chocolate Chip Pnut butter cookie recipe and deciding to copy it into your cookbook. You cant rewrite it to make sugar cookies unless you recognize what modifications were originally made.

ElectricDragon · Feb 16, 2019

So every spell that exists, exists in as many versions as there are combinations of metamagic feats? A maximized, empowered, cold, fireball wouldn't be stopped by greater spell immunity because it is different from the fireball chosen.
Essentially, the number of spells in the campaign grows to infinite levels and metamagic feats become unnecessary, just find a version of it with the feat attached and never have to spend your precious feats on metamagic effects again.

"Hey now I got a quickened fireball to add to my fireball spellbook. Only 14 more and every spell I ever cast will be fireball, you can call me Fireball Man!"

Metamagicked scroll copied into spellbook question

Greenfield

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ElectricDragon

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Jef Gorbach

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Greenfield

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Shasarak

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Greenfield

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Jef Gorbach

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ElectricDragon

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