D&D 5E "Charge Up" Mechanic: A problem for D&D

dave2008

Legend
But golems and skeletons and whatnot are incapable of fatigue, so it would seem like this new class wouldn't work against them. If you go back to the class working by building its own momentum, rather than exploiting the fatigue of others, then that's a different thing and those arguments are a lot harder to defend.

I support both ideas, but I personally see it as a tactical thing, not a physical thing. The longer the combat goes the more you (someone of this fictional class) see the opponents tendencies and how to exploit them. After a round or two you can unleash more devastating attacks because you have ascertain your opponents weaknesses.
 

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I posted about a charging "hex blast" ability for a 3E-warlock-style class a while back. Feedback was that it was too fiddly and possibly incentivized counterintuitive player behavior. I wasn't too sure about those, but I never was comfortable with the math on how it scaled. As others have said in this thread, it's hard to judge how long a 5E fight will/ought to be.
 

I support both ideas, but I personally see it as a tactical thing, not a physical thing. The longer the combat goes the more you (someone of this fictional class) see the opponents tendencies and how to exploit them. After a round or two you can unleash more devastating attacks because you have ascertain your opponents weaknesses.
Narratively speaking, how is that any different from what the rogue does? They analyze your movement, and exploit your weakness with a devastating attack. They're just really good at it, and don't need a round or two to figure things out.
 

At some point, probably right around 4E, the rogue's Sneak Attack power changed from "knowing all of the different weak spots" to "being able to figure out the different weak spots" in order to justify the mechanic working on things that they've never seen before.
Sure, but by your logic, our suspension of disbelief ought to be strained to the breaking point by the fact that no matter which weak spot a 5th-level rogue finds and stabs, it always amounts to the same 3d6 damage. Surely some more vulnerable monsters ought to take more, and less vulnerable monsters ought to take less, right? Just as surely different monsters ought to fatigue at different rates. To keep the bookkeeping in this game sane, we abstract and generalize. And it works. For most players, anyway.
 

dave2008

Legend
Narratively speaking, how is that any different from what the rogue does? They analyze your movement, and exploit your weakness with a devastating attack. They're just really good at it, and don't need a round or two to figure things out.

I'm not sure you need a different narrative, but I think of it as more actively engaging, assessing, and dissecting the opponent. What ever the narrative difference between advantage and normal attacks is I guess. I feel the tennis analogy was fairly solid (I think that was this thread) ;)
 

Sure, but by your logic, our suspension of disbelief ought to be strained to the breaking point by the fact that no matter which weak spot a 5th-level rogue finds and stabs, it always amounts to the same 3d6 damage. Surely some more vulnerable monsters ought to take more, and less vulnerable monsters ought to take less, right?
Eh, it's a matter of degree. Saying that something is equally effective on everything that it does work against requires less suspension of disbelief than just saying that it works equally well against everything regardless of what it is. Saying that it's a binary result, rather than a spectrum, is less extreme than saying that it's universally effective.

I mean sure, a critic could keep poking holes until the game becomes unplayable, by having some unreasonably high standard for verisimilitude. Most people will have a lower standard for what they're willing to buy into, and of those potential people who might play this game, it seems like more of them would draw the line at being able to exploit a rock monster's weak spot (of which it has none) than at the weak spots of trolls and hydras being equally effective when struck.
 

I'm not sure you need a different narrative, but I think of it as more actively engaging, assessing, and dissecting the opponent. What ever the narrative difference between advantage and normal attacks is I guess. I feel the tennis analogy was fairly solid (I think that was this thread) ;)
If you're going to justify a different mechanic, then it's mandatory that it reflect a different narrative, or else it causes issues with internal consistency of the world. You can't have one narrative that uses two different mechanics, or else the outcome will depend on your meta-game choice of which mechanic to use, rather than flowing from the in-game reality which the mechanics reflect.
 

dave2008

Legend
If you're going to justify a different mechanic, then it's mandatory that it reflect a different narrative, or else it causes issues with internal consistency of the world. You can't have one narrative that uses two different mechanics, or else the outcome will depend on your meta-game choice of which mechanic to use, rather than flowing from the in-game reality which the mechanics reflect.

That may be true for you, but it is not a concern for the group I play with. That being said, I already provided a different narrative in my previous response. If you want something more detailed, provide me with a detail example and I'll write something up. What, do you think, is the narrative space of the rogue or the fighter?
 

I mean sure, a critic could keep poking holes until the game becomes unplayable, by having some unreasonably high standard for verisimilitude. Most people will have a lower standard for what they're willing to buy into, and of those potential people who might play this game, it seems like more of them would draw the line at being able to exploit a rock monster's weak spot (of which it has none) than at the weak spots of trolls and hydras being equally effective when struck.
Canonically, the golem very definitely has a weak spot.

Just sayin'.
 

If you're going to justify a different mechanic, then it's mandatory that it reflect a different narrative, or else it causes issues with internal consistency of the world. You can't have one narrative that uses two different mechanics, or else the outcome will depend on your meta-game choice of which mechanic to use, rather than flowing from the in-game reality which the mechanics reflect.
I wouldn't say it's mandatory, but I will agree it's preferable. For instance, ideally I would like to see sneak attack and critical hits be more related than they are, since by my reading the rogue is simply landing such hits consistently. But that said, I have to agree with [MENTION=83242]dave2008[/MENTION] that he has provided a sufficiently distinct narrative for this martial "charge up" mechanic. Getting into a combat "flow" and gaining the upper hand on opponents not so attuned is very different than making sudden, unexpected strikes at vulnerable points.
 

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