D&D 5E What Rules do you see people mistake or misapply?

The Old Crow

Explorer
The gargoyle saw you, cast invisibility on himself and flew into another room closing the door behind himself. The next round the rogue opens the door room. The gargoyle may or may not be in the room, but it's invisible and not moving. It never had a chance to take the hide action.

How would you know where it was, barring some other interaction with the environment like leaving a trail for some reason.

I think this is a flaw of the initiative system, which operates with each creature taking their turn then freezing in place as the next creature takes their turn, but really everyone is running around and doing things at the same time. The gargoyle didn't have time to take the hide action, so the rogue who bursts in the room right after it slammed the door knows right off where it likely is.
 

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Oofta

Legend
So with the extreme conditions of these examples you agree the standard rule is that you can see and invisible creature until it hides or some other circumstance intervenes. After all, the rogue does see the invisible gargoyle move into the other room to follow it and the wizard needs a raging storm to cover his position. Of course with the wizard in the thunderstorm, you could always detect where the wizard is by noticing the water hitting him and not following the regular pattern of the rain.

I'm saying that it's up to the DM to determine when a stealth check is required to remain or become undetected. If the gargoyle had been outside in the rain when it turned invisible and went into the room, yes it likely would have been dripping and giving away it's position.

I don't know if anyone follows Dice Camera Action, but there was an episode recently where the majority of the waffle crew turned invisible and were running around in a forge. Chris Perkins never asked for a stealth check (while they were invisible) because the one person in heavy armor was flying around. He may have been a little more lenient than I would be (I'd have given the group free stealth checks with advantage, and maybe even disadvantage to notice the flying invisible character) but that was his call.

It's all about what type of game you want to run.
 

Oofta

Legend
I think this is a flaw of the initiative system, which operates with each creature taking their turn then freezing in place as the next creature takes their turn, but really everyone is running around and doing things at the same time. The gargoyle didn't have time to take the hide action, so the rogue who bursts in the room right after it slammed it knows right off where it likely is.

And what I'm saying is that the gargoyle didn't need to take the hide action because there was no realistic way for the rogue to know where it was.

If things were more simultaneous, I would say the gargoyle was ahead of the rogue and got far enough away (and around a corner) that the rogue had no chance to hear it land.
 

Pathkeeper24601

First Post
I think this is a flaw of the initiative system, which operates with each creature taking their turn then freezing in place as the next creature takes their turn, but really everyone is running around and doing things at the same time. The gargoyle didn't have time to take the hide action, so the rogue who bursts in the room right after it slammed the door knows right off where it likely is.

This is a very good point and demonstrates the developers wisdom in the way the rule has been defines. That rogue is not entering the room a significant time after the gargoyle. Logically speaking, the rogue is probably following right on the gargoyles heels withing the same 6 second round. This would be plenty of time to notice the gargoyle settling down and getting ready to still its wings. The Stop and Go nature of D&D is great for mechanically keeping combat ordered, but sometimes rules are needed to help maintain the simultaneous action that is reality.
 

Satyrn

First Post
Flip things around for a second and see if this holds up.
This reads to me as saying you think some of us here are trying to screw our players by ruling strictly for them and lax for their monsters. But whatever, I'll answer

Yes. It holds up.

If the prey he's ambushing aren't paying attention I'm not calling for a check; I've performed my role as DM, deciding what rule, if any, to apply to a player's declarations to decide what happens.


And my other DM might very well - indeed, we snuck up and ambushed a giant a few weeks ago without rolling any checks because the DM figured the giant was thoroughly engrossed in the meal he was enjoying immensely.

So there's 2 DMs that won't rule the way you say is virtual certainty. You're wrong.


And again, this:

AFAIC, what's good for the goose is good for the gander.

It's like you think we don't know the way the game works.
 

So in fact and invisible stalker, standing perfectly still, DOES do things to give away its presence (it makes noise and likely stirs up dust/whatever).

The invisible statue, could easily be doing the same. Of course you as the DM can easily say "DM Fiat, you guys suck, and you have no means of detecting this super trap that I have made!!! Bwahahaha!"

So do creatures that take the hide action. Or does a rogue no longer have a scent, breathe, or make minor noises? It's the absurd levels of superhuman detection granted vs. invisible targets (ambient heat lol), which if applied to non-invisible hiding targets would make stealth IMPOSSIBLE that I take issue with.

I have no problem with someone with a passive perception of 20-25+ knowing which square an invisible creature is in. It's automatically giving that info out I take issue with.
 

Hussar

Legend
And what I'm saying is that the gargoyle didn't need to take the hide action because there was no realistic way for the rogue to know where it was.

If things were more simultaneous, I would say the gargoyle was ahead of the rogue and got far enough away (and around a corner) that the rogue had no chance to hear it land.

But, what is the gargoyle doing? What, specifically, is the gargoyle doing when the rogue enters the room? Is it not standing still and not making any noise? Isn't that engaging the Stealth skill by default?

That's what I've been meaning with my question about providing an example of a character taking actions that can be described in such a way as to not fufill the definitions of the Stealth Skill and Hiding, but still allow the character to be undetected.

Your gargoyle isn't moving and is trying to be quiet - thus taking a Hide action.

Your Wizard should be easily detectable actually and I completely disagree with your ruling. Invisible in a rainstorm is pretty much textbook for being detected by other means. There's a honking big man shaped hole in the rain splashing around in the sky. That would be detectable.

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[MENTION=6801204]Satyrn[/MENTION] - sure. Whatever you say. I'm going to stand by my point here that DM's will call for a stealth check in that situation every single time.
 


Oofta

Legend
But, what is the gargoyle doing? What, specifically, is the gargoyle doing when the rogue enters the room? Is it not standing still and not making any noise? Isn't that engaging the Stealth skill by default?

That's what I've been meaning with my question about providing an example of a character taking actions that can be described in such a way as to not fufill the definitions of the Stealth Skill and Hiding, but still allow the character to be undetected.

Your gargoyle isn't moving and is trying to be quiet - thus taking a Hide action.

Except the gargoyle had no actions left. It had landed and ceased it's movement but it had already used it's action to turn invisible.

If you're saying that there can be cases where the DM gives someone a free stealth check, I agree. In the case of the invisible gargoyle, it's not interacting with the environment in any way that can be noticed by anything but supernatural means. It is effectively an invisible statue if not moving.

If it was an invisible human wizard I may rule the same. Unless you have keen hearing or the wizard is panting you aren't going to hear them breathing. If you don't have a keen sense of smell you aren't going to smell them unless they really need a bath.

But I would probably give the wizard a free stealth check with advantage while having perception checks at disadvantage because a wizard is not going to be as still as an immobile gargoyle.

How people handle it is going to vary by DM.
Your Wizard should be easily detectable actually and I completely disagree with your ruling. Invisible in a rainstorm is pretty much textbook for being detected by other means. There's a honking big man shaped hole in the rain splashing around in the sky. That would be detectable.

It was a thunderstorm ... but it wasn't raining yet. But I also disagree. If there's a man shaped hole in the rain and that hole is more than 20 feet or so away I doubt you're going to see it. If there were a pane of glass supported by clear poles would you really expect to see it simply because it's raining?
Close up certainly, but get far enough away and it's going to be obscured by the rain between you and it.

Ultimately it's a DM's call.
 

Hussar

Legend
Remember something, detecting something invisible (or heavily obscured, which is what invisibility is) doesn't tell you the exact location. It tells you where that thing is in a 5 foot square. It tells you that something is at that location and enough of a something that I can tell something is there, even if I don't know exactly what.

So, yeah, your pane of glass in the rain is enough for someone to know that there is something there. They can potentially see that there is something odd about that location. They'd still have disadvantage to attack that location and couldn't target it with anything that requires you to see the target, like Hold Person, but, they'd still know enough to be able to shoot arrows in the right neighborhood.

The invisible gargoyle is the same thing. It rushed into the room. Maybe there is dust on the floor, maybe there is dust in the air that's disturbed by its passage. Maybe the rogue managed to open the door before the gargoyle completely managed to stop moving. Maybe it's a wooden floor and the half ton gargoyle is making some dents in the wood leading to where it stopped. Whatever. That's what passive perception is for.

Now, if the gargoyle had actually taken the Hide action? Now he's Hidden until the PC's take an action to find him.

Maybe our flying wizard sparkles a bit from the Fly spell. Maybe he's not as quiet as he thinks he is. Maybe a flash of lightning causes the invisibility to ripple a bit. Whatever. Again, until he actually takes a Hide action, he isn't Hidden.

AFAIC, that's the bottom line. Hidden is a condition in the game. It is not the same as the plain English word hide. Hidden is a condition that requires a Stealth check. Other than something like Etherealness or a few other exceptions, you cannot apply the Hidden condition without one.

Heavily Obscured, again, another game defined condition, is not the same as Hidden. Heavily Obscured is a lot easier to achieve. Standing in a dark room satisfies that. But, Hidden, as a condition, requires a Hide action. At least, that's how I rule. Otherwise, invisibility becomes far, far too powerful.

I mean, why does my rogue ever have to make a Stealth check? I'm in an area that is Heavily Obscured, so, I am automatically Hidden so long as I don't move? I want to play a Shadow Path Monk in that case. Wahoo, I can teleport every round and I'm automatically hidden each time, so long as I stay in shadowy areas? Go go ultimate ninja.

This is why I don't like your interpretation. It has far too many knock on effects and causes all sorts of corner case issues where the player constantly has to refer back to the DM to determine his or her actions. No thanks. I think I'll go with a simple solution that applies virtually universally. Reduces frustration, makes the game run faster and smoother and removes all the arguments. Yup, that's the way I roll.
 

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