D&D 5E What Rules do you see people mistake or misapply?

[Pathkeeper24601]

Seriously, point out where it says everyone always knows where you are if you have not taken the hide action. Hiding is one way to become undetected. Just like 2+2 is one way to get a result of 4. All the bolding and underlining in the world does not change that.

You rule that you have to take the hide action to be undetected. That's fine. It's your game. The rules do not state that hiding is the only way to be undetected in combat.

I would just suggest that you listen to this podcast. If you are unable to do so let me transcribe a small snippet from around 28:40 where Jeremy Crawford is talking about invisibility

"In some cases the DM will decide that an invisible person's location is unknown to the combatant ... that wizard that cast invisibility on herself, the orcs have lost track of where she is even though she never bothered to hide..."
​

So maybe I'm wrong. Maybe the guy who wrote the rules is wrong. If I am I am in good company.

EDIT: edited to reduce snark.

I don't think anybody really disputes that there can be exceptions that require DM ruling. What I am saying is 2+2 is the rule, 3+1 can happen. Your sole defense seems to rely around proving a negative. There is a lot of things that the rules don't say you can't do, that doesn't make those doing those things the rule. Still, the rules are pretty clear what the default condition is and "In some cases the DM will decide that an invisible person's location is unknown to the combatant" pretty much makes it clear what the exception is.

 

[Oofta]

I'm just going to summarize my POV. I don't understand why any of this is controversial, especially since it was just confirmed by Jeremy Crawford.

• The only way spelled out in the rules to avoid detection in combat is to take the hide action.
• The rules do not state that taking the hide action is the only way to avoid detection.
• Turning invisible does not mean other creatures do not know where you are. They may or may not, it's a DM's call.
• If you rule that everyone always knows where you are unless you've taken the hide action that's perfectly OK.
• Personally I base it on the situation and the environment. Losing track of an invisible person or creature in combat is rare, but can happen.
• Listen to this podcast; around 28:40 Jeremy Crawford states: "In some cases the DM will decide that an invisible person's location is unknown to the combatant ... that wizard that cast invisibility on herself, the orcs have lost track of where she is even though she never bothered to hide..."
  

 

[Bacon Bits]

OK, I'm just not understanding this position for the Invisible Stalker to be detected. I'm curious how deep this rabbit hole goes.

Let's use a heavily customized version of our favorite module. We'll call this one: Invisible Stalker and Pie.

You're the DM and I'm the player. We shall assume my character is a level 1 human Rogue with a passive perception of 15. My character opens a door to a room. The room is 10 foot square, contains one Invisible Stalker, and one fresh, hot, fabulously aromatic apple pie. My character has no light source, and there is no light source outside the room.

In the following scenarios, determine whether or not my character can detect the Invisible Stalker and the pie in the room. If I know exactly where they are, please state so.

1. The room is brightly lit.
2. The room is brightly lit and covered by magical silence.
3. The room is dimly lit.
4. The room is pitch black.
5. The room is covered in magical darkness.
6. The room is brightly lit, and heavily obscured by magical fog.
7. The room is brightly lit and covered by magical silence. The Invisible Stalker is holding the pie (assume the pie is invisible while so held).
8. The room is brightly lit, and surrounded by walls of magical force.
9. The room is brightly lit, but the doorway has been completely filled with a wall of stone.

 

[Satyrn]

OK, I'm just not understanding this position for the Invisible Stalker to be detected. I'm curious how deep this rabbit hole goes.

Let's use a heavily customized version of our favorite module. We'll call this one: Invisible Stalker and Pie.

You're the DM and I'm the player. We shall assume my character is a level 1 human Rogue with a passive perception of 15. My character opens a door to a room. The room is 10 foot square, contains one Invisible Stalker, and one fresh, hot, fabulously aromatic apple pie. My character has no light source, and there is no light source outside the room.

In the following scenarios, determine whether or not my character can detect the Invisible Stalker and the pie in the room. If I know exactly where they are, please state so.

Pedantic me is going to answer this. In every scenario, your character can detect both. However, in every scenario your character does not detect the invisble stalker (because you have not presented any reason you would expect one and it has not done anything to alert you to its presence, my DM ruling), but you detect the pie every time - by sight or smell, although your sense of smell may not be good enough to locate its position in the hands of the stalker ; roll a perception check, DC 10.

 

[Oofta]

OK, I'm just not understanding this position for the Invisible Stalker to be detected. I'm curious how deep this rabbit hole goes.

Let's use a heavily customized version of our favorite module. We'll call this one: Invisible Stalker and Pie.

You're the DM and I'm the player. We shall assume my character is a level 1 human Rogue with a passive perception of 15. My character opens a door to a room. The room is 10 foot square, contains one Invisible Stalker, and one fresh, hot, fabulously aromatic apple pie. My character has no light source, and there is no light source outside the room.

In the following scenarios, determine whether or not my character can detect the Invisible Stalker and the pie in the room. If I know exactly where they are, please state so.

1. The room is brightly lit.
2. The room is brightly lit and covered by magical silence.
3. The room is dimly lit.
4. The room is pitch black.
5. The room is covered in magical darkness.
6. The room is brightly lit, and heavily obscured by magical fog.
7. The room is brightly lit and covered by magical silence. The Invisible Stalker is holding the pie (assume the pie is invisible while so held).
8. The room is brightly lit, and surrounded by walls of magical force.
9. The room is brightly lit, but the doorway has been completely filled with a wall of stone.

At least it's not cake. Because we all know the cake is a lie.

IMHO the only thing the rogue would know is that in #7 the room smells like beautiful, delicious pie that he cannot see. Unless the Invisible Stalker is tap dancing, it's quite possible the rogue doesn't know he's there. If the Stalker is tap dancing I'd have to ask what kind? Irish Step Dancing? Clog Dancing? Flamenco? The possibilities aren't endless, but once you throw in that pie wildcard things just get crazy.

There are all sorts of other factors at play as well. Did the invisible stalker get hungry and eat some of the pie? Is there a pile of crumbs at his feet in the outline of his footprints? What kind of monster would eat the pie that was clearly meant for the rogue? Is the stalker still shoving that delicious pie into his mouth making involuntary nom-nom noises? Does the pie disappear immediately once in it's mouth or are there bits of pie to taunt the rogue with swirling around being slowly digested?

Obviously I'm having a hard time taking this thread seriously any more. Sorry.

A real answer would be that anything invisible has to make noise, leave tracks, somehow interact with the environment to be noticed. If it's close enough you may sense it, if a creature has keen hearing it may even be able to hear a heart beating (assuming a quiet locale). So if it's standing right behind you looking over your shoulder you may notice it even if you do not know how you detected them.

 

[Erechel]

Passive perception is pretty much ignored by many.

Cover. A creature in between an attacker and their target provides 1/2 cover or +2 armor, this even includes melee attacks with reach weapons, pretty much ignored by many.

You are missing the +2 to the Dex Saves too. Looking for cover is a useful way to get better fireball saves.

Spellcasting. Many people are just allowed to cast regardless of if their current situation actually allows it.

Never happened to me. I've actually silenced a priest by grabbing its mouth last session.

Extra Saves. I have seen on more than one occasion DMs allow for some kind of save to prevent forced movement when there really isn't one available. 4e had a kind of ledge grab reaction built into the rules, but in 5e, if a grappler pushes you off a cliff, or an eldritch blast knocks you into lava, your chance to avoid the effect was the opposed grapple or the attack roll, not afterwards.

I've seen extra saves, but never for that. I usually give saving throws against enviromental dangers or stunts, not only against spells/ attacks (EG: a Strength save to avoid being carried away by currents or being crushed below heavy objects.)

CONCENTRATION. This one is avoided for convenience an absurd amount. If there is a paladin in your game, or anyone who uses concentration and is in melee range, they have probably ignored one concentration check every single game. Also in high level play its important that the DC is 10 OR 1/2 damage taken, whichever is higher.

Although never happened to me as a DM, a friend of mine has a lot of troubles with powergamers that avoid concentration and piled up spells like Sanctuary and Spirit Guardians. Cleric players suck.

 

[Bacon Bits]

Pedantic me is going to answer this. In every scenario, your character can detect both. However, in every scenario your character does not detect the invisble stalker (because you have not presented any reason you would expect one and it has not done anything to alert you to its presence, my DM ruling), but you detect the pie every time - by sight or smell, although your sense of smell may not be good enough to locate its position in the hands of the stalker ; roll a perception check, DC 10.

Are you sure about scenario 9? The wall completely covers the doorway.

A real answer would be that anything invisible has to make noise, leave tracks, somehow interact with the environment to be noticed.

Why? It has no visible form, touches nothing but air, does not need to eat, drink, or breathe.

Or, how about this: In the room is one invisible statue of a gargoyle, and one invisible actual gargoyle. Can I detect the statue or the gargoyle?

If it's close enough you may sense it, if a creature has keen hearing it may even be able to hear a heart beating (assuming a quiet locale). So if it's standing right behind you looking over your shoulder you may notice it even if you do not know how you detected them.

Your actual answer is, "because Spidey sense"? What if it's the target of a sequester spell?

 

[Hussar]

Can I detect them? Yuppers. Can I know their exact location? Nope. At best, I get the square and that's it.

Note, in this case, because the invisible stalker is standing still and making no noise, it is automatically hiding.

Again, can you give a description of actions where you are trying to not be found that does not reference the Stealth skill? Standing still and making no noise sounds an awful lot like a Stealth to Hide action, even if it isn't specifically stating that. So, without standing still and making no noise - since that's stealth by definition - how is your invisible stalker hidden?

 

[Satyrn]

Are you sure about scenario 9? The wall completely covers the doorway.

no, I'm not sure about any scenario now. I assumed you were inside the room, but now you're suggesting you meant you were outside it.

 

[Satyrn]

no, I'm not sure about any scenario now. I assumed you were inside the room, but now you're suggesting you meant you were outside it.

And I see I just read past where you mention opening the door. So I'm fine with every scenario but 9.

So I'm gonna say that in scenario 9, you immediately locate the location of the invisible stalker and the pie - because in this scenario the invisible stalker is a hybrid crossed with a phase spider. It's been waiting for you, and as your face contorts in confusion at why the doorway has been walled off, it phases through and pies your face.