D&D 5E What Rules do you see people mistake or misapply?

[Oofta]

Not quite. It details the process for a creature becoming hidden while unseen in combat.

It says nothing about the other two pillars of the game.
It says nothing about objects (which can't take actions).

I would simply add that it describes a process to become undetected in combat, it does not say it is the only way.

Whether or not any other methods of becoming undetected during combat are allowed is up to your DM, the rules are silent on the issue.

 

[Flamestrike]

While I accept that 2+2=4, that does not mean that 2+2 are the only two numbers that will add to 4.

Do you (A) automatically know where every creature on the planet is?

That's irrelevant. Every creature on the planet isnt involved in the encounter. Unless you're making 6 billion initiative checks every encounter.

In a standard encounter in standard counter distance if you want to hide, you must take the hide action. If you want to cast a spell you have to take the cast a spell action. If you want to search for someone or something and make an active perception check you must take the search action.

This is the general rule. The absence of any other variables your wizard casting visibility they are not hidden. They will not be hidden unless they take the hide action and their stealth check defeats my passive perception score.

That is the clear rules for becoming hidden in combat. First become unseen (either total cover or heavy obscurement which invisibility expressly counts as for the purposes of hiding) then using your action to take the Hide action. If you are a Rogue of at least second level you can attempt it as a bonus action.

The stealth check you make as part of the hide action determines whether or not you become hidden while invisible.

That is the clear and unambiguous rules for how it works. Taken straight from the players handbook. Confirmed by the guy that wrote the players handbook.

Now there may be outliers or grey areas. The dungeon Master could have set the encounter distances at 500 feet. The dude trying to hide could be behind a mountain. You could be in a factory with incredibly loud machinery. The dude trying to hide could be in the radius of the silence spell. In times like that the DM can intervene. But otherwise the rules are crystal clear.

I agree 100% that it's largely up to the DM to decide when someone could be reasonably detected.

Only when the general rule is not applicable. The general rule is if you want to become hidden you must first become unseen (Invisibility does just this) and then take the hide action.

Nothing you say changes that. Those are the clear and unambiguous rules in the players handbook.

Yes the players handbook doesn't say you can't hide in other ways. It also doesn't say a player can't declare an attack role a critical hit and then score one without rolling the dice. The book says that to score a critical hit you have to roll a natural 20 on an attack roll. It also says that in order to become hidden you must first become unseen and then take the hide action.

The rules are there - you are just ignoring them, First become unseen - then take the hide action.

Seriously read the damn thing.

 

[Pathkeeper24601]

Not quite. It details the process for a creature becoming hidden while unseen in combat.

It says nothing about the other two pillars of the game.
It says nothing about objects (which can't take actions).

Except it does in an offhand way that a Stealth roll would still be used to determine how unnoticeable you are. An invisible creature running through the forest not attempting to Stealth (Hide) would still be noticed. The reason the rules for invisibility in combat is so important is it involves action economy and what can happen between becoming unseen and becoming truly unnoticeable. Sure you don't provoke Opportunity attacks, but someone will still be able to chase you or know where to throw that AOE spell to mess the invisible creature up.

Also, we should agree to keep examples in the realm of applicable. I really don't need a DM or even rules to determine I don't know where that Invi9sible Stalker clear across the world is. I'm more interested in that quasit that just turned invisible in front of me and is trying to get away and whether I can follow it or put an arrow in its back before it hides.

 

[Flamestrike]

Not quite. It details the process for a creature becoming hidden while unseen in combat.

It says nothing about the other two pillars of the game.
It says nothing about objects (which can't take actions).

For invisible objects for the dungeon master just allocates a DC for them.

From DC 'automatically detected' (an invisible car with the engine running) to DC 'dont bother rolling' (an invisible blade of grass 500 feet away).

For a creature within a standard encounter distance it depends upon their hide check stealth result, just like if they popped behind a pillar and took the hide action or popped behind a tree and it took the hide action.

Unless there are extenuating circumstances becoming invisible does not make you automatically hidden. Nearby creatures are assumed to be able to hear you or notice signs of your passage until and unless you take the hide action (take some effort to be quiet and conceal where you are).

 

[Pathkeeper24601]

I would simply add that it describes a process to become undetected in combat, it does not say it is the only way.

Whether or not any other methods of becoming undetected during combat are allowed is up to your DM, the rules are silent on the issue.

But any other way of becoming undetected in combat is a ruling answer and not a rules answer unless you can point to a set of specific rules to support it.

 

[Satyrn]

Now, show me the rules that would suggest an invisible creature is automatically invisible as a base assumption unless the DM chooses otherwise.

But that's essentially what some of us are saying: that it's fine for the DM to choose otherwise.

Whether you start with "invisible is automatically detected" or the reverse as the base assumption, the DM can rule against the base assumption - and that means that the absolute statement that "a creature must use the hide action" is not applicable.

 

[Hussar]

Not quite. It details the process for a creature becoming hidden while unseen in combat.

It says nothing about the other two pillars of the game.
It says nothing about objects (which can't take actions).

To be fair, outside of combat, you are not limited by the action economy, and thus, taking actions is moot. You cannot take (game defined) Actions outside of initiative. You can, however, apply the action rules outside of combat, when they make sense. In the same way that outside of combat, you can interrupt someone's action (taking while they are talking) and not have to use any sort of actions. This is something (outside of specific exceptions) you cannot do. I can't attack on your turn, for example. But, I can certainly talk while you are talking.

So, something that is standing motionless, making no noise and invisible, is de facto taking the hide action. After all, that's precisely what the hide action IS. It's a case that people are trying to create a specific action for "Hide action" that isn't somehow standing still and making no noise. Outside of combat, you don't need to call it the "Hide Action" because outside of combat, you take no game defined actions. But, make no mistake, that's precisely what the character is doing.

It's no different than the following exchange:

Player: I talk to the guard to pump him for information about the local thieves guild. I'm trying to be friendly and make nice.
DM: Ok, make a Persuasion check.

The player didn't say he was taking an action. He didn't say he was trying to persuade the guard. But, it's obvious in context that that's what's going on. In the same way that the invisible stalker standing motionless in the room so he isn't being detected by these pesky PC's, is trying to remain Hidden. And, thus, a Hide check is automatic.

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All this aside, I take a much more pragmatic view of all of this. What is more fun?

To me, the "automatically undetectable thing" is just far, far too frustrating in play. Yay, monster attacks, we maybe get an attack, and then we get to play Blind Man's Bluff again. It's just such a HUGE PITA. It's frustrating for the players and it's boring for me as a DM. Add in the extra tactical layer of "Monster can attack OR can hide" makes it a lot more fun to use invisible creatures like Poltergeists or Invisible Stalkers. And, it's not like invisibility is a terribly rare condition. Lots of the casters get it - all the arcane types plus some Druids and Clerics too. Making it auto-succeed makes it too powerful IMO. Especially for a 2nd level spell. It's an automatic get out of jail free card for casters. Drop invisibility, move 10 feet and poof, you can't find me. Unless you start burning actions. Again, whoopee, I get to spend the round doing Perception checks, and if I fail, I get to stand around with my thumb up my rump until next round.

I much prefer the "active camouflage" version of invisibility which makes it very useful (no AO's, disadvantage to be attacked) but not so frustrating.

 

[Pathkeeper24601]

But that's essentially what some of us are saying: that it's fine for the DM to choose otherwise.

Whether you start with "invisible is automatically detected" or the reverse as the base assumption, the DM can rule against the base assumption - and that means that the absolute statement that "a creature must use the hide action" is not applicable.

I agree with this assessment. If not in every response, I have generally included that DM's can rule either way as the situation presents itself. I would say we all in essence agree that a DM ruling can override the default rule, it just getting at what the rules say that default is.

 

[Oofta]

Seriously read the damn thing.

Seriously, point out where it says everyone always knows where you are if you have not taken the hide action. Hiding is one way to become undetected. Just like 2+2 is one way to get a result of 4. All the bolding and underlining in the world does not change that.

You rule that you have to take the hide action to be undetected. That's fine. It's your game. The rules do not state that hiding is the only way to be undetected in combat.

I would just suggest that you listen to this podcast. If you are unable to do so let me transcribe a small snippet from around 28:40 where Jeremy Crawford is talking about invisibility

"In some cases the DM will decide that an invisible person's location is unknown to the combatant ... that wizard that cast invisibility on herself, the orcs have lost track of where she is even though she never bothered to hide..."
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So maybe I'm wrong. Maybe the guy who wrote the rules is wrong. If I am I am in good company.

EDIT: edited to reduce snark.

 

[Hussar]

Oofta, can you provide an example where something is attempting to evade detection that does not draw on the definition of the hide action? IOW, can you provide an example of something trying to hide (not the action, the plain English word) that does not fit within the definition of the Hide Action?

In my mind, just because you aren't flat out stating "I take the Hide Action" isn't actually required for a Hide Action to be taken. Just like you don't have to flat out state, "I am using Persuasion" in order to trigger a Persuasion check.

And, out of curiousity, if the Invisible Stalker in our example isn't using the Hide action, and a PC actively uses a Perception action, what is the DC? While we might quibble over whether or not Passive Perception detects the presence of the invisible enemy, we do still have to set a DC for an active check. What is the DC, and how did you come by it.

Additionally, earlier, someone mentioned traps like a trip wire. Funny thing is, Passive Perception TOTALLY spots trip wires. Trip Wires and traps are AUTOMATICALLY detected so long as your Passive Perception is high enough. That's straight out of the rules. So, what's the difference? Why can I spot a trip wire that's hidden in the brush, but, I cannot detect an invisible enemy? What action is that trip wire taking or not taking?