D&D 5E What Rules do you see people mistake or misapply?

[MiraMels]

It's responses like this that really stress my "do not post overly snarky responses" rule.

You may rule that some one/thing has to take the hide action to avoid detection in your game. That's fine, it's your game. But the rules (and common sense) don't state that. In addition it was just contradicted by Jeremy Crawford. Here's the link again.

The invisible statue I threw into my game a while back did not have to "take the hide action" to be undetectable. The PCs had no way of knowing it was there because it was not interacting with the environment in any way that could be detected.

An invisible statue is an object, not a creature. Obviously it doesn't have to make dexterity (stealth) checks. It can't, as it lacks a dexterity score, owing to the fact that it is an object, not a creature.


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[Oofta]

Why? It has no visible form, touches nothing but air, does not need to eat, drink, or breathe.

Or, how about this: In the room is one invisible statue of a gargoyle, and one invisible actual gargoyle. Can I detect the statue or the gargoyle?

Well, if the gargoyle is clog dancing, yes I may know where he is.

Just standing still? Probably not unless I literally run into it. A gargoyle might have that granite smell though. And I've been in a pitch black room where I could practically feel the stone wall before I ran into it because of the temperature difference. But more than a few feet away? Probably not going to happen. Unless the room is half flooded and there's a gargoyle-shaped hole in the water. Because there are exceptions to every rule.

Your actual answer is, "because Spidey sense"? What if it's the target of a sequester spell?

No, my real answer is they have to interact with the environment that can be detected somehow. Haven't you ever had that feeling that something was right there and turn around to find that your cat snuck up behind you? That somehow you knew something was there without consciously realizing it?

In my campaign, if there's an invisible immobile gargoyle you probably aren't going to know it's there unless you stub your toe on it. Other people are the ones that will argue that if it hasn't taken the hide action at some point before you enter the room you will know it's there, not me.

 

[Oofta]

Can I detect them? Yuppers. Can I know their exact location? Nope. At best, I get the square and that's it.

Note, in this case, because the invisible stalker is standing still and making no noise, it is automatically hiding.

Again, can you give a description of actions where you are trying to not be found that does not reference the Stealth skill? Standing still and making no noise sounds an awful lot like a Stealth to Hide action, even if it isn't specifically stating that. So, without standing still and making no noise - since that's stealth by definition - how is your invisible stalker hidden?

The gargoyle saw you, cast invisibility on himself and flew into another room closing the door behind himself. The next round the rogue opens the door room. The gargoyle may or may not be in the room, but it's invisible and not moving. It never had a chance to take the hide action.

How would you know where it was, barring some other interaction with the environment like leaving a trail for some reason.

 

[Oofta]

An invisible statue is an object, not a creature. Obviously it doesn't have to make dexterity (stealth) checks. It can't, as it lacks a dexterity score, owing to the fact that it is an object, not a creature.


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It wouldn't be any different from the invisible gargoyle scenario.

Or a bazillion other scenarios. Like the wizard flying around in a thunderstorm with improved invisibility casting spells. The opponents could ready actions to respond when they saw (or possibly heard) a spell being cast but the storm covered any sounds of flapping robes and similar. As long as the wizard moved after casting, there was no realistic way for anyone else to detect him.

 

[MiraMels]

In my campaign, if there's an invisible immobile gargoyle you probably aren't going to know it's there unless you stub your toe on it. Other people are the ones that will argue that if it hasn't taken the hide action at some point before you enter the room you will know it's there, not me.

And you can absolutely make that ruling, the rules empower you to do so. However, the topic of this thread is the rules-as-written. How you'd rule a situation isn't the RAW. I mean, you are literally describing situations where you'd do away with the RAW for detecting hidden creatures because you don't think there's even the slightest chance for the players to notice. That's a ruling. (And that's fine! It's a good ruling! Rule away.)



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[Hussar]

Flip things around for a second and see if this holds up.

PC Rogue decides to ambush someone. Moves into a heavily obscured area and waits, not moving and not making any noise. NPC wanders into ambush range. I'll be dollars to donuts that every single DM you will ever play with will call for a stealth check. Despite the fact that our rogue has exactly the same conditions (heavily obscured, not moving, not making noise) as the invisible stalker, the check will always be called for. Every time.

Why? If the rogue satisfies exactly the same conditions as our invisible stalker, shouldn't he automatically succeed? Isn't he automatically hidden? After all, the NPC can't see him or hear him and the rogue isn't moving. So, the rogue should automatically be hidden.

Yet, as I said, it's virtually guaranteed that the DM will call for a stealth check to be hidden.

AFAIC, what's good for the goose is good for the gander.

And, [MENTION=6801845]Oofta[/MENTION], I really would like an answer to my question. Can you give me an example of something being hidden that does not satisfy the qualifications of a Hide check?

 

[Oofta]

And you can absolutely make that ruling, the rules empower you to do so. However, the topic of this thread is the rules-as-written. How you'd rule a situation isn't the RAW. I mean, you are literally describing situations where you'd do away with the RAW for detecting hidden creatures because you don't think there's even the slightest chance for the players to notice. That's a ruling. (And that's fine! It's a good ruling! Rule away.)



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The rules don't cover everything, especially when it comes to stealth and hiding. They aren't meant to do so.

So I'm just pointing out that fact, that in some cases the DM has to make a ruling is part of the game.

What I disagree with is people that say "according to the rules unless you take the hide action everyone knows where you are in combat". You may rule that everyone knows where you are, but it is not the assumption.

EDIT: just to be clear. Sometimes "RAW" is that the rules were left intentionally vague so that the DM is the one deciding how things work because there are too many factors at play. Don't believe me? Listen to the podcast.

 

[Oofta]

And, [MENTION=6801845]Oofta[/MENTION], I really would like an answer to my question. Can you give me an example of something being hidden that does not satisfy the qualifications of a Hide check?

I thought I did. A couple of times. Maybe I just don't understand the question.

A gargoyle turns invisible and goes into another room. The next round the rogue follows him into the room, he has no realistic chance to know where the invisible gargoyle is unless he runs into it (or does something else clever like start throwing around handfuls of flour).

A spellcaster with improved invisibility is flying around casting spells in a thunderstorm. He casts, then moves. The storm is noisy enough that there's no way he's going to be heard so all the opponents can do is wait for a visible effect of the spell or hope to hear a verbal component.

As far as what is good for the goose is good for the gander, I agree. My latter example was a PC. Yes, it was annoying in a way but the PC was having fun. Well, until the dragon showed up anyway*.

*Yes, I had planned all along for the dragon to show up because I hadn't expected a full frontal assault. The PCs were still victorious because my players are awesome.

 

[Pathkeeper24601]

I thought I did. A couple of times. Maybe I just don't understand the question.

A gargoyle turns invisible and goes into another room. The next round the rogue follows him into the room, he has no realistic chance to know where the invisible gargoyle is unless he runs into it (or does something else clever like start throwing around handfuls of flour).

A spellcaster with improved invisibility is flying around casting spells in a thunderstorm. He casts, then moves. The storm is noisy enough that there's no way he's going to be heard so all the opponents can do is wait for a visible effect of the spell or hope to hear a verbal component.

As far as what is good for the goose is good for the gander, I agree. My latter example was a PC. Yes, it was annoying in a way but the PC was having fun. Well, until the dragon showed up anyway*.

*Yes, I had planned all along for the dragon to show up because I hadn't expected a full frontal assault. The PCs were still victorious because my players are awesome.

So with the extreme conditions of these examples you agree the standard rule is that you can see and invisible creature until it hides or some other circumstance intervenes. After all, the rogue does notice the invisible gargoyle move into the other room to follow it and the wizard needs a raging storm to cover his position. Of course with the wizard in the thunderstorm, you could always detect where the wizard is by noticing the water hitting him and not following the regular pattern of the rain.

 

[RulesJD]

Didn't read the long thread, but one of the most incorrectly applied rules:

Concentration "checks"

It is NOT a "check". It is a "Save" which means it applies all things that apply to saves, including proficiency, Bless, Resistance, etc.

Additional rules not applied properly:

1. Readied Actions

2. Drowning

3. Heavy Armor with below strength reducing movement

4. Impact of Cover when shooting through crowds/impact on Dexterity saves

5. Needing use of hand for Somatic component

6. Equiping/unequiping Armor/Shield

7. Interact with Object Action (pulling/stowing weapon).

8. Ties on opposed Ability Checks

9. How Disadvantage works against enemies within 5ft (if incapacitated = no Disadvantage)