D&D 5E The 'New' Ranger

doctorbadwolf

Heretic of The Seventh Circle
No it's not. Not RAW anyway. Nor how most people play it I assume. I mean, you can play it however you want, but I'm pretty sure barbarians are not considered supernatural as a baseline (totem sure, but not the core class), and rage is based off of real life historical inspiration, not magic.

Berserkers and Celtic figures like Cúchulainn were considered supernatural. Berserker rage was an animistic Shamanistic practice.
And there is no way rage is "mundane". That is absurd.
[MENTION=6683613]TheCosmicKid[/MENTION] you obviously care more about what is or isn't magical than I do. I don't know why this is such a big deal for you, but I just don't care enough to spend the next few days getting nitpicked over it. Again.

Peace out!
 

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Sacrosanct

Legend
Berserkers and Celtic figures like Cúchulainn were considered supernatural. Berserker rage was an animistic Shamanistic practice.

This is not even close to true. The Romans didn't consider Boudica's entire army as supernatural because they didn't wear heavy armor and cut themselves, working themselves into a rage. Crazy? Probably. But supernatural? Um, no.

And there is no way rage is "mundane". That is absurd.

We have plenty of real world examples of this, from the vikings to the Picts to the Zulu, to even modern day examples like football players (like Jack Youngblood playing on a broken leg) and special forces. It's not absurd. It's adrenaline and will.
 

Before accusing anyone of dishonesty, you should consider the meaning of the word "especially" and how it might reasonably be interpreted by others reading your argument. "Cake is delicious, especially when it's chocolate" != "Cake is delicious when it's chocolate".
That's even MORE dishonest than what you wrote last time. "Especially" in that context meant "in light of" the fact that I established the Ranger's connection to the beast as magical, which it clearly is on some level.

You assumed that I was arguing against monks and druids having this feature, and you have also repeatedly cited monks and druids as reason for rangers having this feature. I was succinctly rebutting both points. That I was simply stating the obvious (though not an actual tautology) only underscores the shakiness of your assumptions.
You didn't rebut anything.

That's like saying fireball is inelegant, cluttery, and a spell tax, and it'd be more elegant if sorcerers just got the ability to throw fire as a class feature. Doing the magic thing within the established mechanical framework for doing magic things is more elegant than doing the magic thing through an ad hoc entry in the class feature list.
Fireball is established as a spell from the very start of 5e. Bypassing DR/magical is established as a class feature from the very start of 5e. Your equivalency is false.

On the other hand, when ranger-type characters encounter restless spirits in Lord of the Rings or Game of Thrones, both of them have to acquire and use magic weapons to deal with the problem. Now, admittedly, Aragorn doesn't have an animal companion -- but Jon Snow does, and it's still the weapon rather than the wolf that's effective against the White Walkers.
Then the Beast Ranger as written clearly does a poor job of making a Jon Snow-type Ranger. The new Beast Conclave Ranger doesn't even get Extra Attack, which would signify Jon Snow's ability to actually, you know, fight with his weapon.*

(*That's not even considering that in the ASOIAF books at least, notably A Dance With Dragons, that some sort of magical connection between Jon Snow and Ghost is pretty heavily implied, but that's another can of worms altogether.)

So you adapt the tactics to fit the particular challenge. That's the point. Forcecage has size limits too, for what it's worth: anything that can fit into the solid-sided version can also be tripped or grappled by a Medium creature, and the barred version of course comes with its own drawbacks. It's a spell that can be very strong or not so strong, depending on the circumstances, which is what makes it interesting. If it were strong unconditionally, it would be poor game design and a spell tax.
And then said spellcaster uses another spell that's just as good for a different situation. They can do that. The Beast Ranger has ... what exactly?

Your argument is based on the assumption that everyone gets the key, if not always through a class feature. You call it "the same thing that literally every other character is able to do 100% passively in some form or fashion".
And what I meant was that because Barbarians/Fighters/non-Beast Rangers/Paladins/etc. make ALL their attacks with their weapon, then if they find a magic weapon, they're breaking DR/magical with their entire offensive capability. I've made that pretty clear the whole time, you've just chosen not to acknowledge it.

The Beast Ranger, even if it FINDS a magical weapon, is only going to have it benefit one of the attacks Ranger + Beast make on their turn. Because said Beast Ranger only makes 1 attack/turn. The rest of the attacks go to the beast. So DR/magical hurts the Beast Ranger (w/ a magical weapon) far more than it hurts any other weapon-wielding character.

Players making meaningful decisions.
So what makes a decision meaningful? And does Beast Master as written have the capacity to make meaningful decisions?

I can tell you that second question's answer is no.

The word "passively" is a big warning sign right there.
But why?

Then the mechanic that creates this necessity, nonmagical resistance, is bad for the game precisely because it creates this necessity and adds nothing positive to gameplay.
Hey, a conclusion I just might agree with.

You complain about spell tax, but what you're describing here is a feature tax, and you seem for some reason to be enthusiastically in favor of the situation.
I've been proposing since forever to replace the proficiency bonus to damage with bypassing DR/magical in the page-long Companion's Bond entry.
 
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That's even MORE dishonest than what you wrote last time. "Especially" in that context meant "in light of" the fact that I established the Ranger's connection to the beast as magical, which it clearly is on some level.
"Especially" doesn't mean that. Look it up in a dictionary if you don't believe me. But stop trying to blame me for your own malapropisms. I can't know when you intend a word to mean something other than what it conventionally means. I have to respond to the text on my screen, not the thoughts in your head.

Fireball is established as a spell from the very start of 5e. Bypassing DR/magical is established as a class feature from the very start of 5e. Your equivalency is false.
...what?

Then the Beast Ranger as written clearly does a poor job of making a Jon Snow-type Ranger. The new Beast Conclave Ranger doesn't even get Extra Attack, which would signify Jon Snow's ability to actually, you know, fight with his weapon.*
Rogues don't get Extra Attack either. Extra Attack is not what signifies the ability to actually, y'know, fight with one's weapon. That honor would go to weapon proficiency.

And then said spellcaster uses another spell that's just as good for a different situation. They can do that. The Beast Ranger has ... what exactly?
I'm eager to find out what the player comes up with.

The Beast Ranger, even if it FINDS a magical weapon, is only going to have it benefit one of the attacks Ranger + Beast make on their turn. Because said Beast Ranger only makes 1 attack/turn. The rest of the attacks go to the beast. So DR/magical hurts the Beast Ranger (w/ a magical weapon) far more than it hurts any other weapon-wielding character.
Are you telling me this because you think I don't know? Do you think I've been arguing that somehow a beast master with a magic weapon works the same as a fighter with a magic weapon? Because I haven't.

So what makes a decision meaningful?
That's a big and interesting game design question, but does it matter here? Receiving an automatic passive ability isn't even a decision.

And does Beast Master as written have the capacity to make meaningful decisions?

I can tell you that second question's answer is no.
Well, apart from the beast they tame, the weapon they wield, the spells they learn and cast, the tactics they use. Apart from all those, sure, I'll agree with you that they lack the capacity to make meaningful decisions.

For heaven's sake, dude, if you're going to make bold unsupported assertions, at least make them vaguely plausible.

Because it's tricky to generate meaningful decisions from passive abilities. Passive abilities that do generate meaningful decisions tend to be conditional, so that you can take actions with an eye toward fulfilling the condition. A prime example of this would be the rogue's Sneak Attack. Sneak Attack also has the benefit of being exciting: when you trigger it, you get to roll a fistful of sweet, sweet bonus dice. On the other hand, bypassing nonmagical resistance is neither conditional nor exciting. It doesn't change the way you might want to act; in fact, it negates an enemy feature which does that. It makes encounters less differentiated for you than they otherwise would be, encouraging you to make the boring default decision ("attack!") more often.

I've been proposing since forever to replace the proficiency bonus to damage with bypassing DR/magical in the page-long Companion's Bond entry.
I know. Do you see how you're replacing a feature that actually adds something new to the animal with a feature that (you say) the animal simply needs in order to not suck? Like how rangers have to replace a 1st-level spell that might differentiate their character in an interesting way with hunter's mark in order to keep up with damage? Yeah, that's a feature tax.
 
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Xeviat

Hero
To play devil's advocate about the game assuming the ability to get through damage resistance, I'd point you to page 277 of the DMG. There, in the CR calculator, there's a part where it tells you to effecitvely multiply a creature's HP for resistances ("especially bludgeoning, piercing, and slashing damage from nonmagical weapons", it says). This multiplier goes down as levels increase:

1-4 - x2
5-10 - x1.5
11-16 - x1.25
17+ - x1

It's almost as if they expect groups to have more and more ways of bypassing resistances as levels increase (just like they think Flight isn't a defensive advantage past level 10, when players have better ranged attacks and better access to their own flight).

I'm with [MENTION=68748]Gladius Legis[/MENTION] mostly; since the pet cannot wield weapons, and there are no baseline "magic fang amulets" that I'm aware of, I'd give them the ability to ignore DR/magic. But, like [MENTION=6683613]TheCosmicKid[/MENTION], I'd add a "magic fang" spell, because like the "magic weapon" spell, +X to hit would be a worthwhile buff on a pet if you aren't using your concentration for something else. Maybe. But, a "magic fang amulet" that allowed the wearer to bypass magic resistance would be a simple compromise too. I give out "endless quivers" to make the game simpler too.
 

To play devil's advocate about the game assuming the ability to get through damage resistance, I'd point you to page 277 of the DMG. There, in the CR calculator, there's a part where it tells you to effecitvely multiply a creature's HP for resistances ("especially bludgeoning, piercing, and slashing damage from nonmagical weapons", it says). This multiplier goes down as levels increase:

1-4 - x2
5-10 - x1.5
11-16 - x1.25
17+ - x1

It's almost as if they expect groups to have more and more ways of bypassing resistances as levels increase (just like they think Flight isn't a defensive advantage past level 10, when players have better ranged attacks and better access to their own flight).

I'm with @Gladius Legis mostly; since the pet cannot wield weapons, and there are no baseline "magic fang amulets" that I'm aware of, I'd give them the ability to ignore DR/magic. But, like @TheCosmicKid, I'd add a "magic fang" spell, because like the "magic weapon" spell, +X to hit would be a worthwhile buff on a pet if you aren't using your concentration for something else. Maybe. But, a "magic fang amulet" that allowed the wearer to bypass magic resistance would be a simple compromise too. I give out "endless quivers" to make the game simpler too.

FWIW, another solution would be to add another sentence to Coordinated Attack: "Alternatively, you can use the Attack action to make two attacks on your turn, but if you choose to do so, your beast companion cannot use its reaction to make the melee attack from this feature on that turn."

Thus effectively giving the Beast Conclave Ranger "Extra Attack" in those cases it'd be better for the Ranger to make the attack instead of the beast (again, against opponents with DR/magical, or if the beast is somehow out of commission).

And it'd actually allow the Beast Conclave Ranger to much more closely replicate Jon Snow, who's clearly pretty darn good with his weapon, even independent of his wolf.
 

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