D&D Has the Biggest Playerbase, So Why is it the Hardest for 3rd Party to Market Too?

Zethonos brought it up; my bad, should have quoted.

Regardless, I agree that there is a lot of meh in 3PP, but I just find it odd. It feels like unless something is produced by WotC, it isn't given a chance whatsoever, and I feel like that's a huge shame because there's no new great ideas or settings being pushed. Where is 5E's Al-Qadim or Eberron? A lot of big figures for 5E got their start in magazines like Dragon, which openly invited people not in TSR to come in and prove their stuff. Now it's DM's Guild, which is largely a meh, or bust. I don't know.
 

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Mr. Wilson

Explorer
I use 3PP dungeons for inspiration, but the only 3PP book I've purchased for 5E was Tome of Beasts and I only purchased that because I trusted Kobold Press.
 


Zethnos

Explorer
Zethonos brought it up; my bad, should have quoted.

Regardless, I agree that there is a lot of meh in 3PP, but I just find it odd. It feels like unless something is produced by WotC, it isn't given a chance whatsoever, and I feel like that's a huge shame because there's no new great ideas or settings being pushed. Where is 5E's Al-Qadim or Eberron? A lot of big figures for 5E got their start in magazines like Dragon, which openly invited people not in TSR to come in and prove their stuff. Now it's DM's Guild, which is largely a meh, or bust. I don't know.

I didn't say the stories were bad, I was saying people don't usually accept them unless they already have a following and are proven to be a reliable company.
 

Greg K

Legend
Between Patreon, DMs Guild, and Unearthed Arcana on Reddit, I have access to so much more third party material than I could ever need. I have enough material saved that I've personally reviewed for my own (idiosyncratic) sense of balance to replace the PHB two times over.

I was just going to mention Patreon and Reddit/UA in addition an earlier mention of DM's Guild. Plus, there are numerous blogs and websites. So there are plenty of competing places to find material and, often, for free

Plus, going as far back as AD&D (maybe, even OD&D), many players and DMs assume that TSR and, later with 3e) WOTC being the official 1st party source produce better material than third parties with the latter producing junk (Personally, I have found over various editions that several third parties have produced better material than official supplements- although, the 3e SRD did also result in a lot of subpar material. Then again, I found most of the WOTC supplemental material for 3e and 5e to be subpar ( for my needs and tastes) including Xanathar and Sword Coast)
 

Greg K

Legend
Given my prior post, I am more of a third party (including fan material) person. If I run 5e, I have material posted on this site from @I Am A Banana, [MENTION=2167]Khaalis[/MENTION], and others. I also have material from the website and DM Guild account of [MENTION=37579]Jester David[/MENTION]. Then there are material from Kobold Press and others.

However, while there are several products on DM's Guild, many of the big non-WOTC products and much of the material doesn't interest me. I would rather pay for 5e versions of some 3e 3pp material including the following:
From Stone to Steel (Monkey God/ High Moon Media)
Insults and Injuries (Skirmisher Press)
The Psychic's Handbook (Green Ronin)
The Shaman's Handbook (Green Ronin)
The Witch's Handbook (Green Ronin)
 

Eltab

Lord of the Hidden Layer
I look to 3pp for
- Materials that WotC says they are going to be a long time getting to (psionics => Dark Sun). Think of this as a "rough draft" that will be finalized later so don't get too attached to any particular feature.
- Adventures, neat concepts, stories. My Public Library has a 3e adventure set in a wizard's house (how cliché). The Wizard was into demiplanes; cool factor just increased because something different was behind every door.
- Settings. I kept the floor plan from a 3pp fortified post and another 3pp manor because they are adaptable. The rich guy's manor showed up in my Tiamat campaign when I needed a building that could sleep 12 comfortably (my group was really big the week before).
 

I think the OP answers their own question:
On a lot of forums outside of EnWorld (and sometimes, even on EnWorld), 3rd party material is always treated as a last resort and very rarely pulled from.
Emphasis on the word "forums".
That right there is a sample bias, as forums, by their very nature as an older internet medium, are going to favour older and established players.
Forum goers are going to often fall into a couple different camps, with the largest being older fans who remember the 3PP glut of the early 2000s and feel burned by that material. And another large camp being experienced DMs who don't care for 3PP since they can homebrew it themselves.

Looking elsewhere and people are more open to 3PP.
The most obvious place is the Dungeon Master's Guild, that is releasing a contrinual stream of homebrew. There are a few burgeoning 3PP building a rep there. (I'm currently working on a compilation of cool stuff from there; something that I can merge into a single PDF, Photoshop a cover for, and send to Lightningsource for a PoD copy.)

Green Ronin is doing gangbusters with their 3PP campaign setting. Kobold Press is doing very well with a couple must-have books. Goodman Games and Frog God Games are holding their own in terms of Kickstarter Backers.
There is a continual stream of homebrew on Reddit (https://www.reddit.com/r/UnearthedArcana/) and checking fan sites and even surprising places like Pinterest reveals a heck of a lot of homebrew.

D&D and RPGs have always had a strong homebrewing community. People are always quick to make the game their own and customize the rules or add personal content. This got a little harder with 3e and 4e—as the game was much more crunchy with tighter balance—but 5e is super easy to design for. I think one of the reasons 3PP are less common is simply that people don't feel the same pressure to pay someone to do it for them.

That said… I think there's another reason: fewer interested publishers.
A lot of small micro-publishers sprung up for 3e, but time showed it was a lot of work for not a lot of payoff. It's hard to get your name out, and your profits are really tied to the success and failure of someone else's product. At any time the publisher can pull the rug out from under you and kill your market.
Just ask Kobold Press who released a big Pathfinder expansion for the campaign setting a few weeks after Paizo announced Pathfinder 2nd Edition. Good like selling the full print run… :/
Plus, the (relative) failure of 4e, the long playtest of 5e, and rise of Kickstarter have really opened up the floodgates of alternative game systems. There was an opening for non-D&D games and people leapt for that openning like never before. I think a lot of people who would have been 3rd Party designers and publishers have opted to just make their own game system and ruleset.
 

MarkB

Legend
Zethonos brought it up; my bad, should have quoted.

Regardless, I agree that there is a lot of meh in 3PP, but I just find it odd. It feels like unless something is produced by WotC, it isn't given a chance whatsoever, and I feel like that's a huge shame because there's no new great ideas or settings being pushed. Where is 5E's Al-Qadim or Eberron? A lot of big figures for 5E got their start in magazines like Dragon, which openly invited people not in TSR to come in and prove their stuff. Now it's DM's Guild, which is largely a meh, or bust. I don't know.

First, Eberron was not a third-party product.

Second, it's not unreasonable to say that Critical Role's Tal'Dorei at least has the potential to be 5e's Eberron. The setting has huge popularity and brand recognition, and from what I've heard the initial sales have been phenomenal.
 

CapnZapp

Legend
It's interesting you guys even say 3pp don't put out good stories.
I'm not.

Every rpg needs adventures, though they are the money losers (since only 1/5 of the customer base - the DMs - are on the market, and not every DM likes every adventure).

In other words adventures aren't WotC's problem. If adventures was even close to the main bulk of 3PP content WotC would be a happy camper indeed.
 

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