Jon Peterson posts Mordenkainen in 1974

colinbuckler · Jun 8, 2018

And there were Tomes that permenantly increased your stats by +1 or +2.

Jiggawatts · Jun 8, 2018

Its funny how different peoples experiences are. For us Charisma was a pretty-useful-but-not-great stat, about in the middle between those who declare it a total dump stat and those proclaiming it a god stat. Our DM used the NPC reaction adjustment rolls on the regs, and we did a lot of roleplay, but never really delved into hirelings and henchmen. It was also useful for gauging the general hotness of your character.

Also interesting peoples reaction to certain stat scores. I look at those scores and see them as nice but no big deal. Just a couple weeks ago actually, a friend of mine was rolling up a 2E character (her first real one, after playing only 3.5 and 5th), and threw down two 18s and two 15s right in front of me (I think the other two were like 11 and 10), decided she was playing a Half-Elf fighter/thief, put one of the 18s into Str, and then rolled an 85 for her exceptional strength. It was quite glorious.

Echohawk · Jun 8, 2018

Checking some early Dragon magazine mentions of Mordenkainen, Gary was at least consistently reluctant about disclosing stats for active PCs. In a Dragon #71 article on Heward, Keoghtom, Murlyand and Kelanen, he wrote: “Because the personages of Mordenkainen, Bucknard, et al, are actively used or played in my campaign, I cannot give details of their power and possessions.”

That said, in a May 1980 column ("Greyhawk: The shape of the world" in Dragon #37), he lets on that Mordenkainen is now 20th level (or was, when he was last seen): "Mordenkainen: (MU of 20th level): Several years ago, the Neutral arch-mage took his rather vast cavalry force and rode into the west, supposedly on a mission to succor an (Evil) associate who called for his aid. He has never returned."

So we do know that Gary's version of Mordenkainen gained seven levels between 1974 and 1980.

Ratskinner · Jun 8, 2018

AmerginLiath;7437811 So said:
My personal experiences would argue strongly that this was not the case. I started playing sometime in the early 80s and Charisma was regularly dumped. If anything, I would point to larger diverse parties as the key element.

Jay Verkuilen · Jun 8, 2018

Vymair said:
Not surprised to see the high charisma. Henchmen and followers were really important in early D&D and charisma was a key factor in determining the quantity and the loyalty/morale those followers and henchmen had towards their liege.

A lot of their early play was clearly modeled on Jack Vance's Dying Earth series, which was a major influence on the early game. Vecna is an anagram of Vance.

Hriston · Jun 8, 2018

Of interest is that this corroborates the interpretation that XP required to attain levels above name-level in OD&D are in increments equal to the total XP required to attain name-level. In Men & Magic, this figure is equal to the 300,000 XP for the magic-user to attain 11th level (Wizard). In the AD&D PHB, it was raised to 375,000 XP, and the XP requirements for levels above name-level given there also support the above interpretation. What Gygax refers to as "the old system" here in this 1974 version of Mordenkainen must therefore be a pre-OD&D level-progression scheme, possibly one of those found in one of the draft versions of D&D.

Jay Verkuilen · Jun 8, 2018

oreofox said:
I am pretty sure, unless you were a Wizard (aka Magic-User), Int was the "original dump stat", along with Wisdom unless you were playing a Cleric (aka Priest). For many of the stats (at least in 2nd edition, which was my into into the game, and which I have books), you could be just fine with a 6, except in your class's primary stat. Most detriments didn't come into play until you had a 5 or lower, and bonuses for the most part didn't start showing up until you had a 14 or 15. That's one thing I regret with 3rd edition was them making anything less than a 10 you get negatives, and higher than 11 you start getting bonuses.

IMO what they might have done was make the scale a bit more nonlinear, such as in BESM, where 13-15 was +1, 16-17 was +2, and 18 was +3, with penalties being the corresponding mirror image. You got something but weren't totally rocked out by high stats.

Seeing Mordenkainen's stats, and I can see them being real. And I am sure Gygax went through plenty of characters before he got those stats. Are they pre-magic items or are those with magic items? Weren't there fountains and other such things that would grant a character +1 to an ability score? Or is that something my mind just made up?

Permanent stat bumps were indeed common in the old days. There were books, fountains, and so on. Of course, there were also lots of cursed items that would just kill you, too....

Honestly, I had thought about trying to implement the AD&D stat tables, where you wouldn't be screwed badly with a score of 7 or 8, but the amount of changes that would need to be made to everything would be too much that 6th edition would be out by the time I would finish with that. Though, I think I will make the stat cap be 18 like it was in AD&D, instead of 20. Makes Gauntlets of Ogre Power something that is useful, instead of useless as most characters who use Strength would probably already have a 19 or 20 in it, and it would just go to the wizard or cleric.

The AD&D tables were... problematic. They were highly messy and uneven.

Strength, for instance, didn't net you anything until you had a 16, and even then it didn't hold a candle to the awesomeness that was exceptional Strength.

As I said above, the BESM tables were much better.

I do wish that in 5E those stat mod items worked in a way that wasn't "oh my god that's awesome!" suddenly to "meh" although I guess that's how the original items worked. An example might be: If the wearer's Strength is less than 17*, it is raised to 17. If it is 17 or greater, the wearer gains the ability to cast Enhance Ability: Bull's Strength once per long rest. Or something like that. That gives an incentive to keep an otherwise useless item.

WotC seems to like to assign odd stats a lot, which seems really weird because those actually totally pointless.

*I picked 17 rather than 19 because ogre Strength is actually 17.

Jay Verkuilen · Jun 8, 2018

Hussar said:
It's always funny how experience differs. We started playing in the late 70's and, among the people I played with anyway, Cha was the dump stat. The only character that had a decent Cha was the paladin or the ranger (because they HAD to). Everyone else? That's where you're 9 or lower roll went if you could. Then again, we never really bothered too much with henchmen and hirelings.

As I recall, rangers didn't have high Cha, that was druids.

Jay Verkuilen · Jun 8, 2018

Jiggawatts said:
Its funny how different peoples experiences are. For us Charisma was a pretty-useful-but-not-great stat, about in the middle between those who declare it a total dump stat and those proclaiming it a god stat. Our DM used the NPC reaction adjustment rolls on the regs, and we did a lot of roleplay, but never really delved into hirelings and henchmen. It was also useful for gauging the general hotness of your character.

I agree, a lot depended on how it was used. Of course "hotness" lined up with the Comeliness stat, which was one of the UA1E things, though obviously compiled from some article in Dragon like most of the rest of that book.

Also interesting peoples reaction to certain stat scores. I look at those scores and see them as nice but no big deal. Just a couple weeks ago actually, a friend of mine was rolling up a 2E character (her first real one, after playing only 3.5 and 5th), and threw down two 18s and two 15s right in front of me (I think the other two were like 11 and 10), decided she was playing a Half-Elf fighter/thief, put one of the 18s into Str, and then rolled an 85 for her exceptional strength. It was quite glorious.

Nice! Yes I've seen some pretty crazy stats rolled too, and rolled a few.

IMO the real problem that AD&D had was how some stats *really mattered* (exceptional Strength I'm looking at you...) and others were pretty meh.

messy · Jun 8, 2018

i want a staff of power with 192 charges!

Jon Peterson posts Mordenkainen in 1974

colinbuckler

Explorer

Jiggawatts

Adventurer

Echohawk

Shirokinukatsukami fan

Ratskinner

Adventurer

Jay Verkuilen

Grand Master of Artificial Flowers

Hriston

Dungeon Master of Middle-earth

Jay Verkuilen

Grand Master of Artificial Flowers

Jay Verkuilen

Grand Master of Artificial Flowers

Jay Verkuilen

Grand Master of Artificial Flowers

messy

Explorer

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