We saw a Star War! Last Jedi spoiler thread

Ovinomancer

No flips for you!
The captain of the dreadnought certainly agreed with you. Doesn't he say something about how they should have launched their fighters "five minutes ago" when he realizes what Poe is up to.

You mean after Poe is blowing up the dorsal cannon? Yes, which sounds like a grumpy Captain yelling at his subordinates for something he didn't do himself. It's easy to recognize the right thing you should have done after the surprise attack happens. Often, you realize that it shouldn't have been a surprise.
 

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Joker

First Post
Like Luke said, everything you just said is wrong.
Nothing about being saved undercuts a change in personal perspective. That's just nonsensical.
Rey being a "mary sue" (she isn't) has nothing to do with character development. She comes to a greater understanding of the Force, herself, her place in the Galaxy, realizes that she needs to plot her own course, I mean I don't know what bar you're using here, but I'm pretty sure it's "I don't like her because she's too cool so I refuse to see anything positive here", from all that you've said.

Either I'm being terribly incompetent in the English language or you've completely failed to understand what I said.

But it's particularly poor form to put a sentence in quotation marks as if it's something I said. "I don't like her because she's too cool so I refuse to see anything positive here" isn't even tangentially related to anything I wrote. I actually like Rey despite her high power level. She's a hopeful character who tries to overcome the unjust injury of being abandoned. But if I'm generous, her development in this movie is lackluster.

About Finn, saving him from sacrificing himself does actually undercut the change he was going to make. This is movie storytelling 101. The change to a character has to be seen. He can't just want it or talk about it. Now we can only talk about the change that could have come to fruition but didn't. And that scene wasn't about Finn. It was about Poe learning from his earlier "mistake" and to clumsily throw in a love-triangle story between Finn, Rose and Rey.

I understand you really like the movie and that's cool. I'm not disparaging people who had a good time watching it. But for me, the story failed in so many fundamental ways that it was uninteresting to watch. I might say that The Force Awakens wasn't original but it had a solid structure and did a good job at exploring the hero's journey. The Last Jedi didn't.
tt
 

I felt that there were some narrative choices that left me very disappointed, but I liked it overall. Better than all of the prequels, but not as good as A New Hope or Empire.

My issues, in no particular order:

Did anyone else feel that Snoke's death was a bit anti-climatic. I mean, they built up his mystery and suspense in the first movie, and then his death was a bit...meh.
What was the point of Finn and the new girl (can't think of her name) going to the casino planet? What was the narrative arch there? Just to introduce Benicio Del Toro?
For the second time, Phasma was under-utilized. Very disappointing.
Is it me, or did this feel like the end of a trilogy as opposed to a second movie. Makes me a little worried about the third movie.

What I liked:
Luke was well written and utilized. I liked his story arch a lot!
The last 45 minutes of the film were absolutely breath-taking.
You could see Rian Johnson's love of Anime and Samurai movies in the final fight scene between Luke and Kylo.
 

hawkeyefan

Legend
Did anyone else feel that Snoke's death was a bit anti-climatic. I mean, they built up his mystery and suspense in the first movie, and then his death was a bit...meh.

I cut your comment down to just this because I've seen this and Rey's lineage brought up in this way quite a bit, and I don't know if I agree.

I really don't think "they" built up a lot of mystery around either topic. A little bit about Rey, yes, but not nearly enough to warrant the rampant obsessive speculation.

For Snoke, they hinted at next to nothing. They were just like "here's the new big bad" and that was it. They didn't hint at some mysterious past or that there was something unique or important about his rise to power.

For Rey, the definitely played that a bit....but really all it consisted of was not giving her a last name, her being abandoned, and her feeling a connection to the lightsaber. What else did they hint at? Why do these little traits imply some grand history rather than the obvious one?

In other words, I think that the fan base hinted at these things much more than the actual writers/directors. And I think that a lot of people seem to be upset that the crazy theories that they came up with were not realized. It seems a bit unfair to judge the movie based on this.
 

For Snoke, they hinted at next to nothing. They were just like "here's the new big bad" and that was it. They didn't hint at some mysterious past or that there was something unique or important about his rise to power.

That's precisely my point. Here, they have the new big bad...he's an obvious force user. He was able to turn Ben Solo and several of his friends away from Luke's training...he was able to gather the imperial remnant and turn them into the First Order. No one knows anything about him, other than he is able to rule through his power in the Dark Side and fear...

So let's kill him halfway through the second movie.

Yeah...the guy was a really big deal *yawn*
 

billd91

Not your screen monkey (he/him)
That's precisely my point. Here, they have the new big bad...he's an obvious force user. He was able to turn Ben Solo and several of his friends away from Luke's training...he was able to gather the imperial remnant and turn them into the First Order. No one knows anything about him, other than he is able to rule through his power in the Dark Side and fear...

So let's kill him halfway through the second movie.

Yeah...the guy was a really big deal *yawn*

I particularly liked that. They took a setup just like it was from Return of the Jedi and used it as massive misdirection. Suddenly, almost anything became possible! Loved it!
 

I totally disagree that Luke and Leia are failures, or that the aim of this film was to somehow tarnish their legacy.

This all would have been avoided if they'd started the movies at a different point.

You want to get rid of the old cast and focus on new stories? That's a good idea. Set the plot somewhere outside their sphere of influence, or maybe have one old 'PC' as a side character to help guide the new generation, like they did with Han Solo in TFA. But it makes for unsatisfying storytelling to leave off-screen a bunch of tragedy that dramatically changes the personality of our main characters.

If you want to show Luke failing as a teacher, his order being destroyed, and him withdrawing from his family and friends to focus on his shame, okay, have that be one plot thread of Ep 7, which could show Ben becoming Kylo, while keeping roughly the same character beats for Rey and Finn. You can then have Ep 8 involve Han trying to save Kylo and that failing, and have the Republic destroyed by the First Order, with the focus on the new characters becoming heroes of the rebellion. Then maybe Ep 9 is the rebellion failing, but still being a spark of hope to the next generation.

But it's . . . it's bad storytelling to skip over perhaps the second most dramatic thing to ever happen to Luke Skywalker, especially if you later on want that moment to matter to the characters. As much as I complain about the plotting of this new trilogy, Kylo's course has been enthralling, and I think actually seeing his first turn to the Dark Side would have been great cinema.

Think of it like RPGs. If you roleplay through something, and the players fail, that's sad but acceptable. But if the GM says, "While you were sleeping all your gear was stolen and the bad guys rushed ahead and finished their evil plan," that's bad storytelling.
 

doctorbadwolf

Heretic of The Seventh Circle
But it's particularly poor form to put a sentence in quotation marks as if it's something I said. "I don't like her because she's too cool so I refuse to see anything positive here" isn't even tangentially related to anything I wrote. I actually like Rey despite her high power level. She's a hopeful character who tries to overcome the unjust injury of being abandoned. But if I'm generous, her development in this movie is lackluster.
Dismissing her as a "Mary Sue" is a good way to get the exact opposite of any of that across.

She still isn't, by the way. She doesn't even have a high power level. She's just a strong force user.

About Finn, saving him from sacrificing himself does actually undercut the change he was going to make. This is movie storytelling 101. The change to a character has to be seen. He can't just want it or talk about it. Now we can only talk about the change that could have come to fruition but didn't. And that scene wasn't about Finn.
I'm sorry, but that is nonsense. He went from wanting to run to being willing to sacrifice, and further development in the next film is set up by Rose's action.

I understand you really like the movie and that's cool.
I don't need your permission, but thanks. What purpose do you think this serves, I wonder?
 

Ovinomancer

No flips for you!
This all would have been avoided if they'd started the movies at a different point.

You want to get rid of the old cast and focus on new stories? That's a good idea. Set the plot somewhere outside their sphere of influence, or maybe have one old 'PC' as a side character to help guide the new generation, like they did with Han Solo in TFA. But it makes for unsatisfying storytelling to leave off-screen a bunch of tragedy that dramatically changes the personality of our main characters.

If you want to show Luke failing as a teacher, his order being destroyed, and him withdrawing from his family and friends to focus on his shame, okay, have that be one plot thread of Ep 7, which could show Ben becoming Kylo, while keeping roughly the same character beats for Rey and Finn. You can then have Ep 8 involve Han trying to save Kylo and that failing, and have the Republic destroyed by the First Order, with the focus on the new characters becoming heroes of the rebellion. Then maybe Ep 9 is the rebellion failing, but still being a spark of hope to the next generation.

But it's . . . it's bad storytelling to skip over perhaps the second most dramatic thing to ever happen to Luke Skywalker, especially if you later on want that moment to matter to the characters. As much as I complain about the plotting of this new trilogy, Kylo's course has been enthralling, and I think actually seeing his first turn to the Dark Side would have been great cinema.

Think of it like RPGs. If you roleplay through something, and the players fail, that's sad but acceptable. But if the GM says, "While you were sleeping all your gear was stolen and the bad guys rushed ahead and finished their evil plan," that's bad storytelling.
You should never confuse what makes good story for a game with what makes for good story pretty much anywhere else. Very, very different things.

Further, I like that much of the background was off camera. I don't need to see everything unfold. In media res is a time honored storytelling tool.
 

I . . . man, I dunno. I can't agree with the defense of the movie. In medias res gets you into the action of a story, but if you're doing it as part of an episodic format, you don't use it to conceal important character moments, unless you're doing it for comedic effect. Farscape did in medias res all the time, but it never hid swerves of character growth off screen.

Again, if the original trilogy had never existed, I'd be a lot more forgiving about TLJ. If this were a movie called Space Fight: The Final Jerdai, and Bloke VonStarsmith had rejected the ways of the Nexus because he'd failed to teach his Jerdai apprentice, I'd say, "Excellent movie. A bit derivative of Star Wars."

But they changed Luke's character too much without earning it.
 

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