We saw a Star War! Last Jedi spoiler thread

[MarkB]

This all would have been avoided if they'd started the movies at a different point.

You want to get rid of the old cast and focus on new stories? That's a good idea. Set the plot somewhere outside their sphere of influence, or maybe have one old 'PC' as a side character to help guide the new generation, like they did with Han Solo in TFA. But it makes for unsatisfying storytelling to leave off-screen a bunch of tragedy that dramatically changes the personality of our main characters.

If you want to show Luke failing as a teacher, his order being destroyed, and him withdrawing from his family and friends to focus on his shame, okay, have that be one plot thread of Ep 7, which could show Ben becoming Kylo, while keeping roughly the same character beats for Rey and Finn. You can then have Ep 8 involve Han trying to save Kylo and that failing, and have the Republic destroyed by the First Order, with the focus on the new characters becoming heroes of the rebellion. Then maybe Ep 9 is the rebellion failing, but still being a spark of hope to the next generation.

But it's . . . it's bad storytelling to skip over perhaps the second most dramatic thing to ever happen to Luke Skywalker, especially if you later on want that moment to matter to the characters. As much as I complain about the plotting of this new trilogy, Kylo's course has been enthralling, and I think actually seeing his first turn to the Dark Side would have been great cinema.

Think of it like RPGs. If you roleplay through something, and the players fail, that's sad but acceptable. But if the GM says, "While you were sleeping all your gear was stolen and the bad guys rushed ahead and finished their evil plan," that's bad storytelling.

Luke isn't one of the PCs in this one, though.

The whole point of keeping the truth of Ben's fall / Luke's failure offscreen was so that we could have the exploration that took place in this episode - the views of the same event from Ben's side and then from Luke's, with Rey having to figure out where the truth lay, and whether she could put her trust in either Ben or Luke.

That's good storytelling, and laying it all out in advance for us would have ruined it.

 

[RangerWickett]

Huh, odd. I felt like the "Who's telling the truth" thing was the weakest part of that plot line. I thought her thinking Kylo had any shred of decency left was only justifiable because she'd seen him kill Snoke, not because she sympathized with his flashback.

 

[Joker]

Dismissing her as a "Mary Sue" is a good way to get the exact opposite of any of that across.

She still isn't, by the way. She doesn't even have a high power level. She's just a strong force user.

I'm sorry, but that is nonsense. He went from wanting to run to being willing to sacrifice, and further development in the next film is set up by Rose's action.


I don't need your permission, but thanks. What purpose do you think this serves, I wonder?

She really is the definition of a Mary Sue. That doesn't make her less of an interesting character. I still enjoy watching her journey but would have liked her to explore more of it than was offered.
I have to disagree with you on Finn. From everything I've learned about story telling, having a character reach a point where he's made an important character decision only for it to be taken away is cheating. Like a DM saving his NPC because he likes him so much.

That I understand that you enjoyed the film wasn't as condescending or as personal as you inferred. I genuinely understand that people enjoyed the film and that's cool. I'm not criticizing the people who liked this movie. But I look at this film and for me it glosses over important character arcs which, from a story-telling perspective, seems unforgivable.

 

[hawkeyefan]

That's precisely my point. Here, they have the new big bad...he's an obvious force user. He was able to turn Ben Solo and several of his friends away from Luke's training...he was able to gather the imperial remnant and turn them into the First Order. No one knows anything about him, other than he is able to rule through his power in the Dark Side and fear...

So let's kill him halfway through the second movie.

Yeah...the guy was a really big deal *yawn*

I thought Snoke...other than his name...was actually really cool. He was a larger presence in the first film than te Emperor was in Empire Strikes Back. And he was truly menacing and vile in this film. Probably on par with the Emperor in the throne room in Return, though with less time devoted to him.

Without taking the prequel films into account, Snoke’s about as fleshed out as Palpatine was in the original trilogy.

So I don’t really see the problem. Were viewers angry at the Emperor’s lack of backstory in the original movies? Or is such anger brought about by an elevated sense of expectation based largely on online discussion?

 

[Morrus]

I thought Snoke...other than his name...was actually really cool. He was a larger presence in the first film than te Emperor was in Empire Strikes Back. And he was truly menacing and vile in this film. Probably on par with the Emperor in the throne room in Return, though with less time devoted to him.

Without taking the prequel films into account, Snoke’s about as fleshed out as Palpatine was in the original trilogy.

So I don’t really see the problem. Were viewers angry at the Emperor’s lack of backstory in the original movies? Or is such anger brought about by an elevated sense of expectation based largely on online discussion?

I'm with you. Snoke was really awesome. And I loved the way they subverted our expectations twice. We expected it to be all "I'll turn Rey to the dark side", but it more direct "You are too dangerous to be allowed to live, so I will kill you". And, of course, his death revealing he's not the big bad of the trilogy, but Kylo is. I'm glad they didn't follow the exact same script as in the previous films, and that they managed to surprise me when they didn't.

 

[hawkeyefan]

This all would have been avoided if they'd started the movies at a different point.

You want to get rid of the old cast and focus on new stories? That's a good idea. Set the plot somewhere outside their sphere of influence, or maybe have one old 'PC' as a side character to help guide the new generation, like they did with Han Solo in TFA. But it makes for unsatisfying storytelling to leave off-screen a bunch of tragedy that dramatically changes the personality of our main characters.

If you want to show Luke failing as a teacher, his order being destroyed, and him withdrawing from his family and friends to focus on his shame, okay, have that be one plot thread of Ep 7, which could show Ben becoming Kylo, while keeping roughly the same character beats for Rey and Finn. You can then have Ep 8 involve Han trying to save Kylo and that failing, and have the Republic destroyed by the First Order, with the focus on the new characters becoming heroes of the rebellion. Then maybe Ep 9 is the rebellion failing, but still being a spark of hope to the next generation.

But it's . . . it's bad storytelling to skip over perhaps the second most dramatic thing to ever happen to Luke Skywalker, especially if you later on want that moment to matter to the characters. As much as I complain about the plotting of this new trilogy, Kylo's course has been enthralling, and I think actually seeing his first turn to the Dark Side would have been great cinema.

Think of it like RPGs. If you roleplay through something, and the players fail, that's sad but acceptable. But if the GM says, "While you were sleeping all your gear was stolen and the bad guys rushed ahead and finished their evil plan," that's bad storytelling.

Storytelling for a game is different than storytelling for a film.

The first film was not about Luke. It was about the people searching for him.

This movie is about what happens when he’s found.

Neither one is specifically about Luke’s time as a teacher of new Jedi. Such might be an interesting topic for a story, but instead they decided to tell another story, and used that as back story. They showed us what we needed to know in order to understand current events.

I wouldn’t say that’s bad storytelling. Maybe if the sole story they were going to be “the life of Luke Skywalker”, but that’s not the case.

 

[billd91]

She really is the definition of a Mary Sue.

She's no more a Mary Sue than any other Jedi protagonist. Yet I don't recall a lot of critics calling Luke or Anakin a Gary Stu.

 

[Ovinomancer]

She's no more a Mary Sue than any other Jedi protagonist. Yet I don't recall a lot of critics calling Luke or Anakin a Gary Stu.

This.

 

[Raunalyn]

I'm with you. Snoke was really awesome. And I loved the way they subverted our expectations twice. We expected it to be all "I'll turn Rey to the dark side", but it more direct "You are too dangerous to be allowed to live, so I will kill you". And, of course, his death revealing he's not the big bad of the trilogy, but Kylo is. I'm glad they didn't follow the exact same script as in the previous films, and that they managed to surprise me when they didn't.

Yes, I thought he was awesome, too. Which is why such an ignoble death was so anti-climatic.

 

[epithet]

Yes, I thought he was awesome, too. Which is why such an ignoble death was so anti-climatic.

I seriously doubt we've seen the last of Snoke. He somehow recovered from having his head crushed, I don't think this is the worst thing that's happened to him.

People seem very much ready to accept what they're shown in this movie at face value. Remember, this is a trilogy started by JJ "he's totally not Khan" Abrams. Rian is out there talking about how there was essentially no story guidance provided to him, and that he was given complete authority to do whatever he wanted with Snoke, to make Rey's parents whoever he felt like making them, so on and so forth. I'm amazed that anyone believes that. These are billion-dollar movies in the world's most valuable movie franchise. You seriously don't think there was an outline of the trilogy nailed down before Ep 7 was even begun? Who Snoke is, who Rey's parents are, and what ultimately happens to Rey, Poe, and Finn as well as Han, Luke, and (subject to tragic change) Leia was all worked out ahead of time for the trilogy... it had to have been. This is Disney, they don't just wing it.

That means, to me, that every time Rian says he was not given any guidance about a major plot point, he's lying. It means that that plot point was absolutely given to him ahead of time and he had to work around it, and that means that Snoke's death and Rey's redneck origins are very likely feints, and that there is some bigger plan yet to play out.

I still believe that once Kylo killed Han Solo, he had to die. As Leia's son and someone who aspires to emulate Vader, he has to sacrifice himself to end the larger threat, thereby achieving some level of redemption. That means Snoke probably returns with a "surprise, I'm unkillable" moment, and the only way to end him for good requires Ben Solo to go out with him. Because hey, you can't skewer Han Solo and drop his body down a bottomless shaft and get away with that... you gotta die. Even if you're his son.

This trilogy is lifting plot points from the original trilogy blatantly, and I think the misdirection about Rey's parents is one such. (Luke's father was a navigator on a spice freighter, then he was a Jedi that was betrayed and murdered by Darth Vader, then Vader was his father.) The return of Snoke, however, seems to be more of a nod to Darth Maul's "death" and return in the Clone Wars.

Unless I'm wrong, and Kathleen Kennedy is just signing off on one movie at a time with no larger plan. If you believe that, I have some beachfront property in New Mexico you should buy as an investment.