The Problem Of Disney Star Wars

Zardnaar

Legend
Describe what this is using only new canon sources.

The old EU is strong in this one.

Old cannon Any force user that is a dark sider that is not a member of a force tradition.

New cannon might not be specific but Kylo has had Jedi training and is a dark sider. He might be a Knight of Ren assuming they are a tradition, but he is basically a dark Jedi.
 

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Ovinomancer

No flips for you!
Old cannon Any force user that is a dark sider that is not a member of a force tradition.

New cannon might not be specific but Kylo has had Jedi training and is a dark sider. He might be a Knight of Ren assuming they are a tradition, but he is basically a dark Jedi.
Despite ignoring the old cannon restriction, a dark Jedi is what you call a dark side force user not associated with a force tradition? Really? They're not associated with a tradition, so they get associated with a Light side tradition?

I'm even less sorry the old EU went up in flames.
 

Zardnaar

Legend
Despite ignoring the old cannon restriction, a dark Jedi is what you call a dark side force user not associated with a force tradition? Really? They're not associated with a tradition, so they get associated with a Light side tradition?

I'm even less sorry the old EU went up in flames.

Sorta that was the Jedi councils position on it. Later on they added in a heap of other traditions light and dark. Generally its more like a Jedi who falls to the dark side but is not a Sith or any other force tradition. A more generic thing might be any dark sider using a lightsaber but is not a memebr of another tradition is a dark jedi.

http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Dark_Jedi

Ok generally a dark Jedi or anyone trained by one. Could be used to describe any dark side user.

In universe the differences between dark jedi, Sith etc are mostly academic to the general populace. If someone can fire force lightning its gonna suck. Knowledge of the Sith was suppressed, only senior Jedi, occultists and maybe specialists in history would have knowledge of them It would be like knowledge of old Roman mysteries for their religious ceremonies, the average person would not know about them.
 
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doctorbadwolf

Heretic of The Seventh Circle
Despite ignoring the old cannon restriction, a dark Jedi is what you call a dark side force user not associated with a force tradition? Really? They're not associated with a tradition, so they get associated with a Light side tradition?

I'm even less sorry the old EU went up in flames.
Entirely in new canon, Kylo Ren is a former Jedi who has gone Dark. Thus, Dark Jedi is a perfectly acceptable description.
 

Umbran

Mod Squad
Staff member
Supporter
http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Dark_Jedi

Ok generally a dark Jedi or anyone trained by one. Could be used to describe any dark side user.

WIkipedia or not, I'd say... dark side user that had Jedi training.

In the movie canon, Darth Vader was Sith *and* Dark Jedi. Darth Maul, Palpatine/Darth Sidious, and Count Dooku/Darth Tyranus were Sith, but had no known Jedi training, IIRC. They are *not* referred to as Dark Jedi in the movie canon, or anywhere else, IIRC.

Snoke was not referred to as "Darth". We have an actor's word that he was not Sith, and we have no information that he had Jedi Training. Goodness only knows what he was.

Kylo Ren had Jedi training, and so could be counted as Dark Jedi... and whatever Snoke was.
 

WIkipedia or not, I'd say... dark side user that had Jedi training.

In the movie canon, Darth Vader was Sith *and* Dark Jedi. Darth Maul, Palpatine/Darth Sidious, and Count Dooku/Darth Tyranus were Sith, but had no known Jedi training, IIRC. They are *not* referred to as Dark Jedi in the movie canon, or anywhere else, IIRC.

Snoke was not referred to as "Darth". We have an actor's word that he was not Sith, and we have no information that he had Jedi Training. Goodness only knows what he was.

Kylo Ren had Jedi training, and so could be counted as Dark Jedi... and whatever Snoke was.
Dooku was a Jedi. He trained Qui-Gon Jin.
It just doesn’t come up much.
 

Zardnaar

Legend
WIkipedia or not, I'd say... dark side user that had Jedi training.

In the movie canon, Darth Vader was Sith *and* Dark Jedi. Darth Maul, Palpatine/Darth Sidious, and Count Dooku/Darth Tyranus were Sith, but had no known Jedi training, IIRC. They are *not* referred to as Dark Jedi in the movie canon, or anywhere else, IIRC.

Snoke was not referred to as "Darth". We have an actor's word that he was not Sith, and we have no information that he had Jedi Training. Goodness only knows what he was.

Kylo Ren had Jedi training, and so could be counted as Dark Jedi... and whatever Snoke was.


Well it was never really clear in the old cannon. It has come up in the new cannon as Dookus trainees in the Clone Wars are dark Jedi not Sith.

I basically go with dark side user with Jedi training. If you are a member of the Sith or another dark side organisation you're not a dark Jedi. There was a hint Snoke was a Dark Jedi or even an ancient Jedi. He didn't have the Darkside eyes like the Sith did (although Dooku also avoided this), and on the mosaic on the Jedi temple it looked like he was on it in TLJ.

They could have had Snoke handled a lot better to put it mildly. Rian dropped hints it seems but didn't follow up.
 


Well it was never really clear in the old cannon. It has come up in the new cannon as Dookus trainees in the Clone Wars are dark Jedi not Sith.

I basically go with dark side user with Jedi training. If you are a member of the Sith or another dark side organisation you're not a dark Jedi. There was a hint Snoke was a Dark Jedi or even an ancient Jedi. He didn't have the Darkside eyes like the Sith did (although Dooku also avoided this), and on the mosaic on the Jedi temple it looked like he was on it in TLJ.

They could have had Snoke handled a lot better to put it mildly. Rian dropped hints it seems but didn't follow up.
It comes up, but they’re not really called either “dark Jedi” or “Sith”. Neither Ventress or Savage are given a title to their order, and neither is Maul.

As far as Snoke’s past go... again, we know more about him than the Emperor in the original trilogy. I don’t think learning how he became Emperoror really improved Palpatine much. The movies suggest much, but aren’t 100% clear.
And really... the mystery is entertaining. Answers are boring.
 

Zardnaar

Legend
It comes up, but they’re not really called either “dark Jedi” or “Sith”. Neither Ventress or Savage are given a title to their order, and neither is Maul.

As far as Snoke’s past go... again, we know more about him than the Emperor in the original trilogy. I don’t think learning how he became Emperoror really improved Palpatine much. The movies suggest much, but aren’t 100% clear.
And really... the mystery is entertaining. Answers are boring.

Context is the kicker. The Empire was roughly space Nazi Germany/USSR analog, they were evil and it was a new story.

TFA and co are basically sequels. The new canon has explained some things but on screen for example they don't really detail the First Order or go into how they actually exist or why are they a threat post RoTJ and how has this new "imperial" faction arrived or why it matters. You get less information than in ANH with Luke talking to Kenobi about the clone wars. You don't need a vast explanation but even 5 minutes would help and they don't do that.

Otherwise why do we really care about the heroes, what they are doing etc etc etc. Doesn't help that there is virtually no character development with the 3 main heroes and the villains are basically chumps.

TFA opens well but Kylo by the end is a chump (Vader was basdass) and then in TLJ- Hux chump/comic relief, Phasma chump, Snoke chump and its purely down to the story. Kylo comes out looking a bit better but he got tricked by Luke so is a chump (for the second time back to back in 2 movies). Its hard to root for the villains defeat when they are more comical than threatening. They started out well at the start of TFA with Kylo holding the blaster bolt in place.

The main problem is they jobbed out all the villains, and the heroes are very generic so its hard to care about any of them. Even Rogue One pulled this off with the relationship between Jynn and her father. She was also a badass and her sacrifice meant something despite only having 2 hours or so to tell that story.

Sure the villains got their comeuppance in the OT but it was in the 3rd movie they killed of Fett/Emperor/Vader. Even have somehting simple like rather than desert Orphan 2.0 Kylo could have killed Reys parents in the opening scene of TFA. Avoids rehash 2.0, gives you an explanation/motive and Rey a simple few lines could tie Rey to Luke so she could have had some training. Evil king/Empire, royal orphan, evil empire is classic, doesn't require that much set up.
 
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