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The Problem Of Disney Star Wars

Zardnaar

Legend
This is a spin off of my other thread "Rate the Star Wars movies.

First things 1st this is not a dump on the Disney Star Wars at all costs. Overall they have been fairly consistent and they have had moments of greatness, I doubt they will ever topple The Empire Strikes Back/ Star Wars: A New Hope as the best Star Wars movies of all time. However there has been a bit of flak directed at The Last Jedi, the Han Solo movie, and to a lesser extent the new expanded universe. Starting off I'll cover TFA, TLJ, and the new EU. The rage directed at Solo I think is mostly a blowback about TLJ and the movie strictly speaking probably did not need to be made. Also apparently there was no master plan for an overall plot for episodes VII-IX and the original plan was 3 different directors.

The Force Awakens
I quite liked this movie and left the movie theatre with a small buss which was missing for the prequels. I think it had two main things wrong with it

1. It was mostly a rehash of Episode IV. To be fair this may have been needed after the prequels.
2. It did a fairly poor job of world building and left it to the new EU to flush out.

Now the original trilogies did not do that much world building early on but they did not need to. The empire was evil and kind of an amalgamation of Nazi Germany and the USSR (notice the red, black and white colours used or the red of the Imperial Guard), along with Stormtroopers. In the late 70's this was all you needed and into the 80's you had President Reagan etc. When the old EU worked at its good bits was it answered questions left over from the originals such as Luke becoming a Jedi master, Han and Leias relationship, what happened to the Imperial fleet etc. The Last Jedi effectively reset most of those questions and created a whole heap of new ones even something as basic as "What is the First Order". On camera they are the bad guys but off camera they are a lot smaller than the old Galactic Empire. Even who was Snoke was a big one. A minor downside was Rey came across as a bit of a Mary Sue though. She could instantly fly the Falcon as good as Han (flying through asteroids/Imperial Star Destroyer). Additionally she beat a powerful Darksider who was trained while she had no training whatsoever which kind of flies in the face of the old and the new EU. I guess this was to show she was powerful but I'll follow this up with TLJ.

The Last Jedi.
If this was a stand alone movie it probably wouldn't be that bad. Its a sequel though. The main problem was I think after TFA generally positive reception along with Rogue One expectations were probably high. The reason I like RoTS over this is I thought it had better story telling and emotional moments (Vader and the Younglings). The overall plot of this movie was silly (a chase scene) that made little sense (that is what faster TIEs are for), and with the Casino planet sub plot that was totally pointless. Additionally they killed of Luke and Snoke probably 2 movies early and Rey is still a Mary Sue but the actress is good. With the Mary Sue thing in the originals Leia gets captured, she is a badass though, and she later gets wounded. In this movie they have her fly through space. In the originals Luke loses his hand and requires training while Han get dumped in carbonite and is blinded but her we have super Rey. In the grand scheme of things this is still probably minor. THey basically throw out a lot of left over plot points from TFA and the villains are all basically chumps. In TESB the rebels get their asses handed to them and Vader is unleashed and is a bigger bad ass than in Episode IV and its before episode VI. In TLJ Phasma is a chump, Hux is a chump, and Kylo Ren is made to look stupid by Luke who then dies. All the villains basically suck at being villains, Poe looks like an idiot, Finnn has the worst sub plot, they don't follow up on things like Rey picking up the lightsaber, they throw away her parentage mystery. And Snoke is also a chump. Sure Fett died like a chump as well but that was in Episode VI he at least got to be a badass in one movie. And we have super Leia and Mary Sue Rey who is supposed to be powerful I suppose along with Leia but is ultimately boring with a heap of characters heroes and villains you ultimately don't care about because they are boring chumps.

And now for the politically incorrect part. Apparently the majority of Star Wars fanbase is white males and going by a fan reactions only we may not be looking that good. Stupid trolls online are going to be stupid trolls. Sure some of the are misogynistic trolls and Kathleeen Kennedy did not help with a shot of here and some females wearing shirts with "The Force is Female" on them. In the old EU and the new the force is the force, no gender required but this feed back to how Rey has been written- at least the actor is doing a better job than the prequel Padme/Anakin ones.. She is not the 1st female Jedi/force user but male or female you need a compelling characters. Padme and Anakin from the original are not overly popular and its not because of their gender. Its because the characters/actors/the writing (take you pick) basically suck. If you read/play the games the old EU you might be familiar with Darth Treya, Zannah and the Dark Lady of the Sith Lumiya. On the light side of the force you have Bastila Shan, Jaina Solo, and Mara Jade who along side Thrawn was probably one of the most popular EU characters (and she married Luke). These female characters were interesting because of the way they were written, none of them were Mary Sues, none of them were damsels in distress (Mara saves Luke- in 1991). Even Admiral Daala initially was interesting (a female genius Admiral) but she became a joke because of the way she was written (she was a chump, Thrawn was not). Han and Leia had 3 kids in the old EU, the males died and Jaina became the Sword of the Jedi and after Luke was probably the most powerful Jedi in the universe. Even then she had to train with Boba Fett, she was not a Mary Sue and her brother Jacen was written more like Anakin from the prequels and he was the one who inherited the Skywalker whine. Jaina needed training, Jacen needed training, Luke, Leia, Mara all needed training (see the recurring theme here). Luke had plot immunity but even he had his ups and downs. Anakin into Vader jumps the gun and gets chopped up even though he was "more powerful" than Obi Wan. Ultimately the popular Star Wars characters (OT 3+ Lando, Mara, Thrawn, Vader etc) are interesting characters. Leave the comic relief to the Droids its what they are there for.

The New EU
In 2014 Lucasfilm burned the old EU to the ground which I can kind of understand why if you want to make new movies. Big screen adaptions of Heir to the Empire and Dark Force rising may have been better received than the new movies though. Obviously this annoyed some people (my reaction was resigned, that being said I follow the new EU on Wookiepedia I don't give them money). The new EU so far has lacked the great moments the old EU had (Thrawn Trilogy, X-Wing books, Knight of the Old Republic) but it has also avoided the worst of the old EUIV (The Cyrstal Star, Children of the Jedi). It also lacks the great video games the old EU had and people are still modding some of those games an playing them now (D&D also has this problem). Its still early though and there was some dreck in the 1st 5 years of the old EU stuff (91-96). And there are alot of bright spots as well (Rgue One, Star Wars Rebels). However they have not learnt from the old EU either, the basic plotline of TFA is roughly the same as multiple stories from 1991-98. That basic plotline is "new imperial faction, new darksiders, new super weapon". They kinda figured this out back in 1998 and wrapped it up and moved on to the New Jedi Order which had its problems but got away from that basic plot. Even worst they went with the bigger is better idea and more of it (Star Killer base, Snokes Supremacy). Which once again duplicates stuff 20+ years ago with the Galaxy Gun (1991), the Sun Crusher (blows up stars, 1994), and bigger and badder super Star Destroyers (multiple examples eg Eclipse and Sovereign class, the Knight Hammer). To put it into context they figured out this was a bad idea around the same time nu metal started to take off and Stone Cold Steve Austin was entering pop culture.Its bad because its repetitive, boring, predictable and you enter into a "can you top this" plotline. If they pull out a bigger badder, Starkiller Base II in episode IX I am not going to be happy especially if its under construction.

So that is basically it. I do not hard core hate the new Disney stuff mostly its just TLJ and I am mostly indifferent to it. By now its hard to come up with truly original Star Wars stuff (the old EU was really massive) but I would like the to keep the over the top silly stuff toned down a bit and give us characters and plotlines I care about. Star Wars has really all been about emotion and its the same in any movie whether the goal of that movie is to laugh, cry, or make you think. Bigger, badder, with boring characters that barely evolve and are semi invincible. One of the few things I did like like about The Last Jedi was the ending with the kid.
 

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ccs

41st lv DM
Zard, your rambling & need to use paragraphs. Reading this was about as hard as EPs.VII & VIII were to watch.
 

First things 1st this is not a dump on the Disney Star Wars at all costs. ... I do not hard core hate the new Disney stuff mostly its just TLJ and I am mostly indifferent to it.

Look, man, I've got some bad news for you. You've probably known this for awhile, and have tried to convince yourself it's not true. But it's time to face the facts. We can all see it; it's time for you to come clean with yourself.

You are not a Star Wars fan.

I'm sure you were once. I've sure it was a big deal to you. A big emotional investment. A big time sink. Possibly even a formative part of your journey into adulthood. But as it stands right now, you simply aren't someone who likes Star Wars. At all.

You've tried to claim that this isn't a dump on Star Wars. It's totally and completely a 100% dump on Star Wars. You claim to be indifferent to the new stuff, but the very fact that you would take the time to write this proves that you aren't. And it's obvious that this is stuff you've been thinking about for a long time, not just some off-the-cuff ramblings about a movie you just saw. Heck, in your last thread, I believe you gave 7 out of 10 movies a negative rating, including one of the original trilogy.

It's time to let go. I know it's hard. I've been there myself with franchises before, and I get that it's even harder to deal with now that there's new material coming out. The important thing is that you can still be a nerd or a geek. You can still go to cons. You can even talk about how you used to be a fan. You can keep those memories; they can still be good memories, and they can still make you happy. But when people talk about the "fandom" or "people who like Star Wars", that's simply not who you are anymore. Star Wars isn't you're thing. And that's okay. We're still here for you.

Maye I'm wrong, and I certainly can't tell you how to live your life. But I really think it would do you a lot of good to find something new that you like. Define yourself by the things that you actually enjoy now, not the things you enjoyed decades ago, or the things you hate. Do it for yourself. Trust me, you'll be happier when you do.
 

Zardnaar

Legend
Look, man, I've got some bad news for you. You've probably known this for awhile, and have tried to convince yourself it's not true. But it's time to face the facts. We can all see it; it's time for you to come clean with yourself.

You are not a Star Wars fan.

I'm sure you were once. I've sure it was a big deal to you. A big emotional investment. A big time sink. Possibly even a formative part of your journey into adulthood. But as it stands right now, you simply aren't someone who likes Star Wars. At all.

You've tried to claim that this isn't a dump on Star Wars. It's totally and completely a 100% dump on Star Wars. You claim to be indifferent to the new stuff, but the very fact that you would take the time to write this proves that you aren't. And it's obvious that this is stuff you've been thinking about for a long time, not just some off-the-cuff ramblings about a movie you just saw. Heck, in your last thread, I believe you gave 7 out of 10 movies a negative rating, including one of the original trilogy.

It's time to let go. I know it's hard. I've been there myself with franchises before, and I get that it's even harder to deal with now that there's new material coming out. The important thing is that you can still be a nerd or a geek. You can still go to cons. You can even talk about how you used to be a fan. You can keep those memories; they can still be good memories, and they can still make you happy. But when people talk about the "fandom" or "people who like Star Wars", that's simply not who you are anymore. Star Wars isn't you're thing. And that's okay. We're still here for you.

Maye I'm wrong, and I certainly can't tell you how to live your life. But I really think it would do you a lot of good to find something new that you like. Define yourself by the things that you actually enjoy now, not the things you enjoyed decades ago, or the things you hate. Do it for yourself. Trust me, you'll be happier when you do.

Thought I gave most of them good ratings, there is 1 Star Wars movie I actively dislike AotC) and 2 I am indifferent to (TPM and TLJ). Rogue One was great along with Star Wars Rebels.

The one thing I did give up on was the new EU not because it bad but after 20 odd years of the old EU I didn't want to go through it again.
 

delericho

Legend
IMO, the problem with the Disney Star Wars is that, simply put, most of it just isn't very good. There are some gems ("Rogue One", "Rebels", and the Lego), but the movies haven't impressed.

Hopefully that will change.

(Of course, it's also worth considering that much of the pre-Disney stuff also wasn't very good. One of the benefits of time is that it tends to preserve the good stuff and let the bad fall away.)
 

Zardnaar

Legend
IMO, the problem with the Disney Star Wars is that, simply put, most of it just isn't very good. There are some gems ("Rogue One", "Rebels", and the Lego), but the movies haven't impressed.

Hopefully that will change.

(Of course, it's also worth considering that much of the pre-Disney stuff also wasn't very good. One of the benefits of time is that it tends to preserve the good stuff and let the bad fall away.)

The new EU as I understand it is slightly better overall than the old one but lacks the best of it and big Star Wars moments. There is worse than Attack of the Clones in the old EU, I even own some of it.
 

delericho

Legend
The new EU as I understand it is slightly better overall than the old one but lacks the best of it and big Star Wars moments.

I've mostly ignored the new EU (except for "Rebels", as mentioned). When they killed off the old version, they also killed any interest I had in reading their new take.

There is worse than Attack of the Clones in the old EU, I even own some of it.

Agreed.
 

Zardnaar

Legend
I've mostly ignored the new EU (except for "Rebels", as mentioned). When they killed off the old version, they also killed any interest I had in reading their new take.



Agreed.

See they added Thrawn to Rebels. He is alive in the new EU it seems as of the end of Rebels. They're plugging a lot of the old EU back into the new one.

Darth Zannah (fan made).

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S22dLMRBf3g

Apparently the new Vader comics are really good, the old EU was kinda going downhill at the end (Fate of the Jedi series), although I liked the Legacy comics.
 

I love how Zard continually attacks TLJ for making Rey a "Mary Sue" and Phasma a "chump" when Rey was even more perfect in Force Awakens and Phasma was even more of a chump.
 

billd91

Hobbit on Quest (he/him)
The Last Jedi.
If this was a stand alone movie it probably wouldn't be that bad. Its a sequel though. The main problem was I think after TFA generally positive reception along with Rogue One expectations were probably high. The reason I like RoTS over this is I thought it had better story telling and emotional moments (Vader and the Younglings). The overall plot of this movie was silly (a chase scene) that made little sense (that is what faster TIEs are for), and with the Casino planet sub plot that was totally pointless. Additionally they killed of Luke and Snoke probably 2 movies early and Rey is still a Mary Sue but the actress is good. With the Mary Sue thing in the originals Leia gets captured, she is a badass though, and she later gets wounded. In this movie they have her fly through space. In the originals Luke loses his hand and requires training while Han get dumped in carbonite and is blinded but her we have super Rey. In the grand scheme of things this is still probably minor. THey basically throw out a lot of left over plot points from TFA and the villains are all basically chumps. In TESB the rebels get their asses handed to them and Vader is unleashed and is a bigger bad ass than in Episode IV and its before episode VI. In TLJ Phasma is a chump, Hux is a chump, and Kylo Ren is made to look stupid by Luke who then dies. All the villains basically suck at being villains, Poe looks like an idiot, Finnn has the worst sub plot, they don't follow up on things like Rey picking up the lightsaber, they throw away her parentage mystery. And Snoke is also a chump. Sure Fett died like a chump as well but that was in Episode VI he at least got to be a badass in one movie. And we have super Leia and Mary Sue Rey who is supposed to be powerful I suppose along with Leia but is ultimately boring with a heap of characters heroes and villains you ultimately don't care about because they are boring chumps.

And now for the politically incorrect part. Apparently the majority of Star Wars fanbase is white males and going by a fan reactions only we may not be looking that good. Stupid trolls online are going to be stupid trolls. Sure some of the are misogynistic trolls and Kathleeen Kennedy did not help with a shot of here and some females wearing shirts with "The Force is Female" on them. In the old EU and the new the force is the force, no gender required but this feed back to how Rey has been written- at least the actor is doing a better job than the prequel Padme/Anakin ones.. She is not the 1st female Jedi/force user but male or female you need a compelling characters. Padme and Anakin from the original are not overly popular and its not because of their gender. Its because the characters/actors/the writing (take you pick) basically suck. If you read/play the games the old EU you might be familiar with Darth Treya, Zannah and the Dark Lady of the Sith Lumiya. On the light side of the force you have Bastila Shan, Jaina Solo, and Mara Jade who along side Thrawn was probably one of the most popular EU characters (and she married Luke). These female characters were interesting because of the way they were written, none of them were Mary Sues, none of them were damsels in distress (Mara saves Luke- in 1991). Even Admiral Daala initially was interesting (a female genius Admiral) but she became a joke because of the way she was written (she was a chump, Thrawn was not). Han and Leia had 3 kids in the old EU, the males died and Jaina became the Sword of the Jedi and after Luke was probably the most powerful Jedi in the universe. Even then she had to train with Boba Fett, she was not a Mary Sue and her brother Jacen was written more like Anakin from the prequels and he was the one who inherited the Skywalker whine. Jaina needed training, Jacen needed training, Luke, Leia, Mara all needed training (see the recurring theme here). Luke had plot immunity but even he had his ups and downs. Anakin into Vader jumps the gun and gets chopped up even though he was "more powerful" than Obi Wan. Ultimately the popular Star Wars characters (OT 3+ Lando, Mara, Thrawn, Vader etc) are interesting characters. Leave the comic relief to the Droids its what they are there for.

Time to burn this "Mary Sue" horse crap down right now. Rey is no more Mary Sue than Luke ("I destroyed the Death Star in my first outing in a sophisticated, high-performance fighter/bomber") was a Gary Stu in A New Hope and a heck of a lot less than Anakin was in Phantom Menace. This is all just bound up in the "a chick is the Force-using star of the new trilogy instead of a guy" backlash that damns her for the stuff her male analogs in previous trilogies got away with.
 

I also wonder how many times the detractors of The Last Jedi have seen the movie, and if their opinion is based on a single theatre showing...
 


Mallus

Legend
But for now, a list of things wrong with the Disney Star Wars movies:

1. The Force Awakes - very derivative of the original Star Wars.
2. The Last Jedi - Canto Bight sequence needs punching up or trimming.

Done!
 

delericho

Legend
I also wonder how many times the detractors of The Last Jedi have seen the movie, and if their opinion is based on a single theatre showing...

Three times. Each time it has gone down in my estimation. (The same is true of TFA, incidentally, though that's dropping from a higher base.)
 

I’m always surprised by how widespread some of The Last Jedi talking points are despite most being silly.

How did Rey know how to fly the Falcon?
Same correspondence course Luke took to learn how to fly an X-Wing I imagine.

How could she beat Ren without training?
We saw her kick two guys’ asses on Jakku. Which was more training that farmboy Luke got, who spent an hour training with Ben and a long weekend with Yoda lifting rocks. Also, Ren took a boltcaster shot to the side, and we know those have enough force to knock a stormtrooper flying.

Why did it drop Rey’s parentage storyline?
My response is “what storyline?” Her parents aren’t even mentioned in TFA. All we know is she was abandoned and the people who did were not coming back. The “Rey’s parents” question is pure fan speculation that exists solely because The Empire Strikes Back had a parentage twist.
Why does the new film have to mimic the surprising twist of a different trilogy? Isn’t that the laziest possible thing they could have done?

Why did they drop the Snoke storyline?
Because he was a lame Emperor ripoff. We knew two things about Snoke: his title and proper name. Which was MORE details than the Emperor received in the original trilogy. The villain we care about is Ren. Snoke was redundant to the plot, and time spent fleshing him out would be better served with ANY of the other characters.

Canto Bight was a pointless.
Hey, you know what else was pointless? The whole Kanjiklub bit, and the following Rathtar chase.
And Starkiller base. Finn would have gone after Rey anyway, the Resistance wouldn’t want a Ren finding Skywalker, and Han wanted to talk to Ben. That whole bit could have just been on Ren’s Star Destroyer and was superfluous.

The new trilogy is suuuuuper feminist.
But is it? Is it *really*?? Rey is the new hero, but are there significantly more female roles? Do the new movies even pass the Bechdel test? (They do, but only barely. Rey has one brief scene with Maz Kanata in TFA and Leia briefly talks about the Resistance to Holdo AFTER discussing Poe.)
Is flopping the gender of the primary protagonist *really* all it takes to be distractingly feminist?
 

Zardnaar

Legend
Time to burn this "Mary Sue" horse crap down right now. Rey is no more Mary Sue than Luke ("I destroyed the Death Star in my first outing in a sophisticated, high-performance fighter/bomber") was a Gary Stu in A New Hope and a heck of a lot less than Anakin was in Phantom Menace. This is all just bound up in the "a chick is the Force-using star of the new trilogy instead of a guy" backlash that damns her for the stuff her male analogs in previous trilogies got away with.

Luke got some training, Rey didn't. Kinda like how the USA used truck components in the Sherman tank, if you could drive a Truck you could drive a Sherman almost. He even mentions the T-16 in the movie so you don't need a massive amount of explanation or logic. The OT heroes also got messed up, that is the difference Luke had his hand chopped off, Leia was wounded and captured, Han got chucked in carbonite and blinded. She never used a lightsaber before, picked one up and defeated Kylo Ren a trained dark jedi. And yet in the prequels we see Jedi trained from very young age, Vader was old and later he murders the younglings.

Han had a hard life but was presented as a pilot from the get go and Leia presumably had royal self defence training and llater oin in the EU she also needed training and was weaker than say Luke, Mara and her children as she devoted less time to it due to being a full time politician. Her daughter Jaina was trained right from the get go and later in life trained with Boba Fett for dirty fighting.

That is the difference.
 
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Zardnaar

Legend
I love how Zard continually attacks TLJ for making Rey a "Mary Sue" and Phasma a "chump" when Rey was even more perfect in Force Awakens and Phasma was even more of a chump.

Luke trained her at least and I did comment on how Phasma was a chump, along with Hux, Snoke etc.
 

Zardnaar

Legend
I’m always surprised by how widespread some of The Last Jedi talking points are despite most being silly.

How did Rey know how to fly the Falcon?
Same correspondence course Luke took to learn how to fly an X-Wing I imagine.

How could she beat Ren without training?
We saw her kick two guys’ asses on Jakku. Which was more training that farmboy Luke got, who spent an hour training with Ben and a long weekend with Yoda lifting rocks. Also, Ren took a boltcaster shot to the side, and we know those have enough force to knock a stormtrooper flying.

Why did it drop Rey’s parentage storyline?
My response is “what storyline?” Her parents aren’t even mentioned in TFA. All we know is she was abandoned and the people who did were not coming back. The “Rey’s parents” question is pure fan speculation that exists solely because The Empire Strikes Back had a parentage twist.
Why does the new film have to mimic the surprising twist of a different trilogy? Isn’t that the laziest possible thing they could have done?

Why did they drop the Snoke storyline?
Because he was a lame Emperor ripoff. We knew two things about Snoke: his title and proper name. Which was MORE details than the Emperor received in the original trilogy. The villain we care about is Ren. Snoke was redundant to the plot, and time spent fleshing him out would be better served with ANY of the other characters.

Canto Bight was a pointless.
Hey, you know what else was pointless? The whole Kanjiklub bit, and the following Rathtar chase.
And Starkiller base. Finn would have gone after Rey anyway, the Resistance wouldn’t want a Ren finding Skywalker, and Han wanted to talk to Ben. That whole bit could have just been on Ren’s Star Destroyer and was superfluous.

The new trilogy is suuuuuper feminist.
But is it? Is it *really*?? Rey is the new hero, but are there significantly more female roles? Do the new movies even pass the Bechdel test? (They do, but only barely. Rey has one brief scene with Maz Kanata in TFA and Leia briefly talks about the Resistance to Holdo AFTER discussing Poe.)
Is flopping the gender of the primary protagonist *really* all it takes to be distractingly feminist?

Some of those were quite important plot lines from TFA though.

Rey being female has very little to do with it, plenty of female Jedi in the older EU and Jaina for example was a lot more interesting than her brother (he had the Skywalker whine), Mara was probably the 2nd most popular EU characters (after Thrawn).

TLJ was not an out right awful movie (we have AotC for that), but t should have been better IMHO both because Disney made 2 good Star Wars movies but as I said expectations were high. Its hard to relate to the characters though- the villains are chumps, 2/3 are not very interesting, Rey is powerful (to powerful) and kind of boring because of it and saddled with a recycled back ground (desert orphan like Luke). Hell Jedi survivor from a ocean planet subverts ye olde star wars tropes would have worked.

I eman they cold have just had her be a survivor of Kylos Jedi massacre or someone from the new Jedi spirited her away. Lucasfilm kinda knows they messed up they have sidelined Kathleen Kennedy and brought back JJ Abrams, the original plan was 3 different directors but no overall plotline or guidelines to have those 3 directors have the same goal in mind.
 
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